The Presiding Officer: Prynhawn da. The National Assembly for Wales is now in session.

Y Llywydd: Prynhawn da. Mae Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn awr mewn sesiwn.

Lesley Griffiths: I have had discussions with Hywel Dda Local Health Board, as have my officials. I am advised that every effort is being made to attract and recruit suitable staff to fill the vacancies as soon as possible. We know that some services are stretched. It is important to ensure that those services are safe and sustainable. However, we will do everything we can to encourage vacancies to be filled as soon as possible.

Lesley Griffiths: Yr wyf wedi cael trafodaethau gyda Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Hywel Dda, fel y mae fy swyddogion. Dywedir wrthyf fod pob ymdrech yn cael ei wneud i ddenu a recriwtio staff addas i lenwi’r swyddi gwag cyn gynted ag y bo modd. Gwyddom fod rhai gwasanaethau dan bwysau. Mae’n bwysig sicrhau bod y gwasanaethau hynny yn ddiogel ac yn gynaliadwy. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn gwneud popeth o fewn ein gallu i annog llenwi swyddi gwag cyn gynted ag y bo modd.

Kirsty Williams: Minister, will you give the Chamber more details on this long-awaited recruitment drive that you will be undertaking to try to attract medical staff to Wales? Will you give us a start date today? Will you tell us how long that recruitment drive will last for, and how many doctors are you expecting to recruit as a result of this initiative?

Kirsty Williams: Weinidog, a wnewch roi i’r Siambr mwy o fanylion am yr ymgyrch recriwtio hir-ddisgwyliedig y byddwch yn ymgymryd â hi i geisio denu staff meddygol i Gymru? A wnewch chi roi dyddiad cychwyn i ni heddiw? A wnewch chi ddweud wrthym ba mor hir y bydd yr ymgyrch recriwtio yn para, a faint o feddygon yr ydych yn disgwyl eu recriwtio o ganlyniad i’r fenter hon?

Lesley Griffiths: You say ‘long-awaited’, but it is something I have only been looking at in the last couple of months. I want to start in January. We need to look at the number of vacancies and then decide on what sort of percentage we need filled, as part of the success of that. However, it is a campaign that we are thinking carefully about. We are doing some preparatory work now, because it has to be a campaign that works.

Lesley Griffiths: Yr ydych yn dweud ‘hir-ddisgwyliedig’, ond dim ond am ychydig fisoedd yr wyf wedi bod yn ystyried hyn. Yr wyf am ddechrau ym mis Ionawr. Mae angen i ni edrych ar y nifer o swyddi gwag ac yna penderfynu ar ba fath o ganran y mae angen ei lenwi, fel rhan o lwyddiant hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae’n ymgyrch yr ydym yn ystyried yn ofalus. Yr ydym yn gwneud rhywfaint o waith paratoi yn awr, oherwydd mae’n rhaid i’r ymgyrch weithio.

Kirsty Williams: It would be a strange government that would set out to have a campaign that did not work. In the meantime, we continue to spend significant amounts of money in the NHS on locum cover, quite rightly, because we have to continue to provide the service. We are doing this at great cost to the NHS. What plans do you have to create an NHS locum bank for doctors that could cut the cost of locum cover? At the moment, we are spending money that could be invested in other services on putting locum staff in place.

Kirsty Williams: Byddai’n llywodraeth ryfedd a fyddai’n mynd ati i gael ymgyrch nad oedd yn gweithio. Yn y cyfamser, yr ydym yn parhau i wario symiau sylweddol o arian yn y GIG ar feddygon locwm, yn gwbl briodol, oherwydd bod yn rhaid inni barhau i ddarparu’r gwasanaeth. Yr ydym yn gwneud hyn ar gost fawr i’r GIG. Pa gynlluniau sydd gennych i greu banc locwm GIG ar gyfer meddygon a allai dorri costau meddygon locwm? Ar hyn o bryd, yr ydym yn gwario arian y gellid ei fuddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau eraill ar roi staff locwm yn eu lle.

Lesley Griffiths: You are right. We do not want to spend money on locum staff when we could have a consultant in post, which would be more sustainable. However, we have to use locums, as you say, to provide the services. A locum bank is something that I am discussing with officials at the moment but I cannot give you any further information at the present time.

Lesley Griffiths: Yr ydych yn gywir. Nid ydym am wario arian ar staff locwm pan allem gael ymgynghorydd yn y swydd, a fyddai’n fwy cynaliadwy. Fodd bynnag, rhaid i ni ddefnyddio staff locwm, fel y dywedwch, i ddarparu’r gwasanaethau. Mae banc locwm yn rhywbeth yr wyf yn ei drafod gyda swyddogion ar hyn o bryd ond ni allaf roi unrhyw wybodaeth bellach ar hyn o bryd i chi.

Lynne Neagle: Minister, I was pleased that you agreed to meet me recently to discuss access to cancer treatment drugs, and I am reassured by our assurances that you will be keeping the individual patient funding process under review. As you know, some clinicians have expressed concerns to me about the impact of access to cancer drugs on the recruitment and retention of oncologists in Wales, and whether that is having an impact on patients’ access to clinical trials in Wales. I know that you visited Velindre Hospital recently. What assurances can you give that we will be able to retain the world-class clinicians that we need in this field and that Wales will remain a destination for these vital clinical trials?

Lynne Neagle: Weinidog, yr oeddwn yn falch eich bod wedi cytuno cwrdd â mi yn ddiweddar i drafod mynediad at gyffuriau trin canser, ac yr wyf wedi fy nghalonogi gan ein sicrwydd y byddwch yn cadw’r broses ariannu cleifion unigol dan arolwg. Fel y gwyddoch, mae rhai clinigwyr wedi mynegi pryderon wrthyf ynghylch effaith mynediad at gyffuriau canser ar recriwtio a chadw oncolegwyr yng Nghymru, ac a yw hynny’n cael effaith ar fynediad cleifion at dreialon clinigol yng Nghymru. Gwn eich bod wedi ymweld ag Ysbyty Felindre yn ddiweddar. Pa sicrwydd y gallwch ei roi y byddwn yn gallu cadw’r clinigwyr o’r radd flaenaf sydd eu hangen arnom yn y maes hwn ac y bydd Cymru’n parhau i fod yn gyrchfan ar gyfer y treialon clinigol hanfodol hyn?

Lesley Griffiths: You are right; I visited Velindre recently with Julie Morgan, the Member for Cardiff North. The message I got from clinicians and staff was that the implementation of this policy is having a positive impact on patient care. Therefore, that will enable us to retain the staff that we need.

Lesley Griffiths: Yr ydych yn gywir; ymwelais â Felindre yn ddiweddar gyda Julie Morgan, yr Aelod dros Ogledd Caerdydd. Y neges a gefais gan glinigwyr a staff oedd bod y polisi hwn yn cael effaith gadarnhaol ar ofal cleifion. Felly, bydd hynny’n ein galluogi i gadw’r staff sydd eu hangen arnom.

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw. A ydych chi felly yn cydnabod yr angen i ymateb i ofynion daearyddol a demograffeg yn y gyllideb ar gyfer y Mesur, gan ystyried  ffactorau megis gwledigrwydd a’r angen difrifol am siaradwyr Cymraeg yn rheng flaen y gwasanaeth? 

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Thank you for that response. Do you therefore recognise the need to respond to the geographic and demographic needs within the budget, by giving particular consideration to rurality and the serious need for Welsh speakers on the front line of the service?

Lesley Griffiths: Rural health services are specialised in some respects and command a great deal of thought and time when we go into them. I mentioned the Welsh-language provision, yesterday, in response to a question from Elin Jones, when we took the regulations through. We want to ensure that mental health services are culturally and linguistically appropriate for the people they serve. I mentioned that the Welsh Government has a task and finish group on the Welsh language and mental health, which reports to my colleague, Gwenda Thomas, the Deputy Minister, and we will continue to work with service providers in respect of the Welsh language.

Lesley Griffiths: Mae gwasanaethau iechyd gwledig yn arbenigol mewn rhai ffyrdd ac yn ennyn llawer iawn o feddwl ac amser pan fyddwn yn ymdrin â hwy. Soniais am y ddarpariaeth Gymraeg, ddoe, mewn ymateb i gwestiwn gan Elin Jones, wrth i ni basio’r rheoliadau. Yr ydym am sicrhau bod gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl yn ddiwylliannol ac yn ieithyddol briodol ar gyfer y bobl y maent yn eu gwasanaethu. Soniais fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi sefydlu grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen ar yr iaith Gymraeg ac iechyd meddwl, sy’n adrodd i fy nghydweithiwr, Gwenda Thomas, y Dirprwy Weinidog, a byddwn yn parhau i weithio gyda darparwyr gwasanaethau o ran yr iaith Gymraeg.

12.45 p.m.

Angela Burns: Minister, you will know that the Welsh Conservatives have expressed concerns about the level of health expenditure. One concern is that the Mental Health (Wales) Measure 2010 must be able to deliver for the most vulnerable in society. What reassurance can you give to charities such as Mind Cymru and Gofal, and to the people of Wales, that there will be no reduction in funding for the implementation of this incredibly important Measure?

Angela Burns: Weinidog, byddwch yn gwybod bod y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig wedi mynegi pryderon ynghylch lefel y gwariant ar iechyd. Un pryder yw bod yn rhaid i’r Mesur Iechyd Meddwl (Cymru) 2010 gyflawni ar gyfer y rhai mwyaf agored i niwed mewn cymdeithas. Pa sicrwydd y gallwch ei roi i elusennau megis Mind Cymru a Gofal, ac i bobl Cymru, na fydd unrhyw ostyngiad yn y cyllid er mwyn rhoi’r Mesur hynod bwysig hwn ar waith?

Lesley Griffiths: The level of funding that the Welsh Government is providing is in line with the Measure’s explanatory memorandum, and the anticipated cost of implementing the Measure will be met with the funding that we have provided.

Lesley Griffiths: Mae lefel y cyllid y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei ddarparu yn unol â memorandwm esboniadol y Mesur, a bydd y gost a ragwelir o weithredu’r Mesur yn cael ei bodloni â’r cyllid yr ydym wedi’i ddarparu.

Lesley Griffiths: The national clinical forum’s role is to look at the plans of the LHBs. The forum is independent and it is there to advise. I am sure that that will be one thing that it will be taking into account. Anything that is raised specifically it can have a look at. As I said, the forum is completely independent. It is a matter for the forum to discuss with the LHBs.

Lesley Griffiths: Rôl y fforwm clinigol cenedlaethol yw edrych ar gynlluniau'r BILlau. Mae’r fforwm yn annibynnol ac mae yno i roi cyngor. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd hynny’n un peth y bydd yn cael ei gymryd i ystyriaeth. Gall ystyried unrhyw beth sy’n cael ei godi yn benodol. Fel y dywedais, mae’r fforwm yn gwbl annibynnol. Mae’n fater i’r fforwm i drafod gyda’r BILlau.

Arweinydd Plaid Cymru (Ieuan Wyn Jones): Diolchaf i’r Gweinidog am yr ateb. A yw’r Gweinidog yn rhannu fy syndod o ddeall mai dim ond un nyrs arbenigol sydd ar gyfer y cyfan o ogledd Cymru, a bod y nyrs honno hefyd yn edrych ar ôl rhannau o ogledd Powys? Mae’r nyrs hon wedi’i lleoli yn y Rhyl ac yn gweithio gyda bron i 1,000 o gleifion. O ganlyniad, mae ond yn gallu gweld cleifion unwaith bob tri mis. Yr wyf yn siŵr y gwelsoch yr erthygl yn y papur yn y gogledd a oedd yn dweud bod merch o’m hetholaeth yn bygwth symud i ogledd Lloegr i gael gwell gwasanaeth. Er mai cyfrifoldeb y byrddau iechyd lleol yw, a yw’r Gweinidog yn cytuno na ddylwn gael loteri cod post felly, ac y dylai’r awdurdod iechyd sicrhau bod mwy o ddarpariaeth arbenigol ar gael lle mae cymaint o gleifion yn disgwyl amdano?

The Leader of Plaid Cymru (Ieuan Wyn Jones): I thank the Minister for the response. Does the Minister share my surprising in understanding that that there is only one specialist nurse for the whole of north Wales, and that that nurse also looks after parts of north Powys? This nurse is located in Rhyl and works with almost 1,000 patients. As a result, the nurse can only see patients once every three months. I am sure that you have seen the article in the paper in north Wales that said that a girl from my constituency is threatening to move to northern England to get a better service. Although it is the responsibility of the local health boards, does the Minister agree that we should not have such a postcode lottery and that the health authority should ensure that more specialist provision is available where so many patients are expecting it?

Lesley Griffiths: I expect people in Wales with long-term neurological conditions, such as multiple sclerosis, to be able to access specialist nurses and care as close to home as possible. You are right that it is for the LHBs to decide, but it is certainly something that they need to look at. You will be aware that one of our manifesto commitments was to introduce care plans for all people with long-term conditions. I think that those plans should spell out the level of specialist nursing care provided. Therefore, it is something that the LHBs need to look at as they look at their workforce.

Lesley Griffiths: Yr wyf yn disgwyl i bobl yng Nghymru sydd â chyflyrau niwrolegol hirdymor, fel sglerosis ymledol, i allu cael mynediad at nyrsys arbenigol a gofal mor agos i’w cartrefi â phosibl. Yr ydych yn iawn wrth ddweud mai mater i’r byrddau iechyd lleol ydyw i benderfynu arno, ond mae’n sicr yn rhywbeth y mae angen iddynt edrych arno. Byddwch yn gwybod mai un o’n hymrwymiadau maniffesto oedd cyflwyno cynlluniau gofal ar gyfer pawb sydd â chyflyrau hirdymor. Yr wyf yn credu y dylai’r cynlluniau hynny osod allan y lefel o ofal nyrsio arbenigol a ddarperir. Felly, mae’n rhywbeth y mae angen i’r BILl ei ystyried wrth iddynt edrych ar eu gweithlu.

Mark Isherwood: While I appreciate that you have stated publicly that staffing issues are a matter for individual health boards, the recommendations of the north Wales neurosciences review included appointing three generically skilled neurology nurses to supplement the existing MS, Parkinson’s and epilepsy nurses. We were told that that review and its recommendations were priorities for your predecessor as Minister for health. What mechanisms do you have in place, therefore, to ensure that the review is implemented and that those three nurses are appointed?

Mark Isherwood: Er fy mod yn sylweddoli eich bod wedi datgan yn gyhoeddus bod materion staffio yn fater i fyrddau iechyd unigol, mae argymhellion yr adolygiad niwrowyddorau yng ngogledd Cymru yn cynnwys penodi tair nyrs niwroleg gyffredinol i ategu’r nyrsys MS, Parkinson’s ac epilepsi presennol. Dywedwyd wrthym fod yr adolygiad a’i argymhellion yn flaenoriaethau ar gyfer eich rhagflaenydd fel Gweinidog iechyd. Pa fecanweithiau sydd gennych yn eu lle, felly, i sicrhau bod yr adolygiad yn cael ei weithredu a bod y tair nyrs hynny’n cael eu penodi?

Lesley Griffiths: I know that a Parkinson’s nurse is about to be appointed in north Wales. As I say, it is for the LHBs to decide, but, as far as I am aware, there are two there and I hope that they are looking to appoint a third.

Lesley Griffiths: Gwn fod nyrs Parkinson’s ar fin cael ei benodi yn y gogledd. Fel yr wyf yn dweud, mater i’r BILl ydyw i benderfynu arno, ond, hyd y gwn i, mae dau yno ac rwy’n gobeithio eu bod yn edrych i benodi trydydd.

1.00 p.m.

It was not a multiple birth, Presiding Officer, but I could not resist the temptation, and I thought that, as it was Christmas, you might give me some leeway, although I am a twin, so I suppose that I could have slipped that in—my mother still has not got over the shock. Minister, will you agree to visit the unit so that you can see those excellent facilities for yourself?

Nid oedd yn enedigaeth luosog, Lywydd, ond ni allwn wrthsefyll y demtasiwn, a meddyliais, gan ei fod yn Nadolig, efallai y byddech yn rhoi rhywfaint o hyblygrwydd i mi, er fy mod yn efaill, felly mae’n debyg y gallwn fod wedi llithro hynny i mewn—nid yw fy mam wedi ddod dros y sioc o hyd. Weinidog, a wnewch chi gytuno i ymweld â’r uned fel y gallwch weld y cyfleusterau rhagorol hynny drosoch chi eich hun?

Lesley Griffiths: Thank you for that, Jocelyn, and congratulations on your third grandchild. I would be delighted to visit Ystrad Mynach. We are seeing some, as you said, state-of-the-art maternity services where the partner can stay and support the mother in the important first few hours after the birth. I would be happy to visit there.

Lesley Griffiths: Diolch am hynny, Jocelyn, a llongyfarchiadau ar eich trydedd wyres. Byddwn wrth fy modd yn ymweld ag Ystrad Mynach. Yr ydym yn gweld, fel y dywedasoch, rhai gwasanaethau mamolaeth blaengar lle y gall y partner aros a chefnogi’r fam yn yr oriau cyntaf pwysig hynny ar ôl yr enedigaeth. Byddwn yn fodlon i ymweld â’r fan honno.

Lesley Griffiths: It is something that, as a Government, does concern us, but I have to say that we are not being aided by the UK coalition Government, which seems to be pushing more and more children into poverty. I know that the number of children in poverty will rise, sadly, due to many of the policies coming out of the UK Government. What we will be doing within the creation of the quality and delivery framework is bringing together all the commitments to ensure that the health outcomes for children in poverty are much better.

Lesley Griffiths: Mae’n rhywbeth sydd yn ein pryderu fel Llywodraeth, ond mae’n rhaid imi ddweud nad ydym yn cael ein cynorthwyo gan Lywodraeth glymblaid y DU, sy’n ymddangos fel ei bod yn gwthio mwy a mwy o blant i dlodi. Gwn y bydd nifer y plant sy’n byw mewn tlodi yn codi, yn anffodus, o ganlyniad i lawer o bolisïau Llywodraeth y DU. Yr hyn y byddwn yn ei wneud wrth greu’r fframwaith ansawdd a chyflenwi bydd dwyn yr holl ymrwymiadau ynghyd i sicrhau bod y canlyniadau iechyd i blant mewn tlodi yn llawer gwell.

Alun Ffred Jones: In answer to Elin Jones, you stated that there would be serious consequences for LHBs that do not break even. What exactly do you mean by that, and how would that affect the health outcome targets?

Alun Ffred Jones: Wrth ateb Elin Jones, dywedasoch y byddai canlyniadau difrifol i fyrddau iechyd nad ydynt yn cwrdd â’u costau. Beth yn union a ydych chi’n ei olygu wrth hynny, a sut y byddai hynny’n effeithio ar y targedau canlyniadau iechyd?

Lesley Griffiths: What I mean is that if the health boards do not come in on target, there is no more money; I have to be very clear about that. It does not matter how many times I say it, people do not seem to realise that there is no more money. This year, for the first time, we took a completely different approach and gave them the money early in the year to ensure that they could live within their budgets, and I am certain that they will do that. When I say that there will be repercussions and that I will have to take action, what I mean is that whole boards could be replaced if that was what was required, but I do not envisage that happening. They cannot have any more money and they have to realise that, and we will have to take serious action if they do not.

Lesley Griffiths: Yr hyn yr wyf yn ei olygu yw os na fydd y byrddau iechyd yn dod i mewn ar y targed, nid oes mwy o arian; mae’n rhaid i mi fod yn glir iawn ynglŷn â hynny. Nid yw o bwys faint o weithiau yr wyf yn ei ddweud, nid yw pobl fel petaent yn sylweddoli nad oes mwy o arian. Eleni, am y tro cyntaf, yr ydym wedi cymryd agwedd hollol wahanol a rhoi’r arian iddynt yn gynnar yn y flwyddyn er mwyn sicrhau eu bod yn gallu byw o fewn eu cyllidebau, ac yr wyf yn sicr y byddant yn gwneud hynny. Pan fyddaf yn dweud y bydd ôl-effeithiau ac y bydd yn rhaid i mi gymryd camau, yr hyn yr wyf yn ei olygu yw y gallai byrddau cyfan gael eu disodli os mai dyna oedd ei angen, ond nid wyf yn rhagweld y bydd hynny’n digwydd. Ni allant gael rhagor o arian ac mae’n rhaid iddynt sylweddoli hynny, a bydd yn rhaid inni gymryd camau difrifol os nad ydynt.

Lesley Griffiths: Thank you for the question. I have seen the Audit Commission publication and I recognised a number of aspects of integrated working that are already reflected in a new model of service delivery in Wales. One example is the Gwent frailty project, which I have visited. It is a joint project across local public services in Gwent that improves the quality and sustainability of care for frail and older people. That is something that I would like to see elsewhere in Wales.

Lesley Griffiths: Diolch am y cwestiwn. Yr wyf wedi gweld cyhoeddiad y Comisiwn Archwilio ac yr oeddwn yn adnabod nifer o agweddau ar weithio integredig sydd eisoes yn cael eu hadlewyrchu mewn model newydd o ddarparu gwasanaethau yng Nghymru. Un enghraifft yw prosiect eiddilwch Gwent, yr wyf wedi ei ymweld. Mae’n brosiect ar y cyd ar draws gwasanaethau cyhoeddus lleol yng Ngwent sy’n gwella ansawdd a chynaliadwyedd gofal i bobl fregus a hŷn. Mae hynny’n rhywbeth yr hoffwn ei weld mewn mannau eraill yng Nghymru.

Janet Finch-Saunders: While we all accept and support the delivery framework on care in the community, there are times when a hospital-based setting is the only option for patients in Wales. What assurances can you provide to ensure that all those patients who require a local-based hospital setting, with vital health and nursing care, will be able to access that fundamental right?

Janet Finch-Saunders: Er ein bod i gyd yn derbyn a chefnogi’r fframwaith cyflawni ar ofal yn y gymuned, mae yna adegau pan mai ysbyty yw’r unig leoliad i’w ddewis ar gyfer cleifion yng Nghymru. Pa sicrwydd y gallwch ei roi i sicrhau bod yr holl gleifion hynny sydd angen cael eu lleoli mewn ysbyty leol, gyda gofal nyrsio ac iechyd hanfodol, yn gallu cael mynediad at yr hawl sylfaenol hwnnw?

Lesley Griffiths: You are right that there are times when only a hospital-based setting is suitable for someone’s care and treatment. As I have said, there are no plans to downgrade any district general hospitals. The local health boards are currently having a look at all of the services provided by hospitals across their areas.

Lesley Griffiths: Yr ydych yn gywir bod adegau pan mai dim ond ysbyty sydd yn lleoliad addas ar gyfer gofalu am a thrin rhywun. Fel yr wyf wedi dweud, nid oes cynlluniau i israddio unrhyw ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth. Ar hyn o bryd, mae’r byrddau iechyd lleol yn edrych ar bob un o’r gwasanaethau a ddarperir gan ysbytai ledled eu hardaloedd.

Theodore Huckle: I will consider any suggestions made to facilitate a better process for the consultation that we will embark upon next year. Although I am described as leading on it, it should perhaps be viewed as me and the First Minister leading together. I thank you very much for the suggestion and I will certainly give consideration to that. I am not too sure whether it would be sensible to have a separate website, or whether some accommodation could be made for your suggestion within the current website facilities. However, again, that could be a matter for our consideration.

Theodore Huckle: Byddaf yn ystyried unrhyw awgrymiadau i hwyluso proses well ar gyfer yr ymgynghoriad y byddwn yn ei gychwyn y flwyddyn nesaf. Er fy mod yn cael fy nisgrifio fel yr un sy’n ei arwain, efallai y dylid ystyried mai fi a’r Prif Weinidog sy’n arwain gyda’n gilydd. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am yr awgrym a byddaf yn sicr yn ystyried hynny. Nid wyf yn rhy siŵr a fyddai’n synhwyrol i gael gwefan ar wahân, neu a ellid gwneud rhyw fath o drefniant ar gyfer eich awgrym o fewn cyfleusterau’r wefan bresennol. Fodd bynnag, unwaith eto, gellid ystyried hynny.

Theodore Huckle: So far, they have been arranged individually, as bilateral meetings. A proposal was made by my predecessor and his colleagues, as law officers, that it might be possible to arrange some things more in the nature of joint meetings—either on a trilateral or a quadrilateral basis—but, so far, no arrangement of that kind has been put in train. However, I am happy to consider that. It is perhaps worth noting that these sorts of meetings were incepted at our instigation. It was the now First Minister who first suggested that these meetings take place, and so, in that way, we have taken the lead in establishing these arrangements.

Theodore Huckle: Hyd yn hyn, maent wedi cael eu trefnu yn unigol, fel cyfarfodydd dwyochrog. Gwnaed cynnig gan fy rhagflaenydd a’i gydweithwyr, fel swyddogion y gyfraith, y gallai fod yn bosibl trefnu rhai pethau oedd yn fwy fel cyfarfodydd ar y cyd—ar sail naill ai teirochrog neu bedairochrog—ond hyd yn hyn nid oes unrhyw drefniant o’r math hwnnw wedi cael ei rhoi ar waith. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn fodlon ystyried hynny. Mae’n werth, efallai, nodi ni anogodd cychwyn ar y mathau hyn o gyfarfodydd. Y Prif Weinidog presennol a awgrymodd gynnal y cyfarfodydd hyn yn gyntaf, ac felly, yn y ffordd honno, yr ydym wedi cymryd yr awenau wrth sefydlu trefniadau hyn.

Ni ofynnwyd cwestiwn 3 OAQ(4)0024(CGE).

Question 3, OAQ(4)0024(CGE), not asked.

1.15 p.m.

Antoinette Sandbach: I am not seeking the disclosure of the content of those discussions. However, there are long-standing concerns about the differing interpretations of the requirements of European regulations and directives in Wales and other UK nations, especially where these different interpretations place Welsh business at a competitive disadvantage. In light of this, will you confirm that you have had meetings or discussions with other law officers relating to the water directive and the continuation of less favoured area support in England and Scotland but not in Wales?

Antoinette Sandbach: Nid wyf yn ceisio datgelu cynnwys y trafodaethau hynny. Fodd bynnag, ceir pryderon hir sefydlog ynghylch gwahanol ddehongliadau gofynion y rheoliadau a chyfarwyddebau Ewropeaidd yng Nghymru a gwledydd eraill y DU, yn enwedig pan fo’r dehongliadau gwahanol hyn yn rhoi busnes Cymru dan anfantais gystadleuol. Yng ngoleuni hyn, a wnewch chi gadarnhau eich bod wedi cael cyfarfodydd neu drafodaethau gyda swyddogion eraill y gyfraith sy’n ymwneud â’r gyfarwyddeb dŵr a pharhad y gefnogaeth ardal lai ffafriol yn Lloegr a’r Alban ond nid yng Nghymru?

Theodore Huckle: I am afraid that we continue to run up against the convention that I will not disclose what I discuss with other law officers. I know that Members are in receipt of a letter that I have circulated with a view to clarifying what I can and cannot say. The area sought to be discussed should be addressed to portfolio Ministers, because they can deal with the subject of the question.

Theodore Huckle: Mae arnaf ofn ein bod yn parhau i redeg yn erbyn confensiwn na fyddaf yn datgelu’r hyn rwy’n trafod gyda swyddogion eraill y gyfraith. Gwn fod Aelodau wedi derbyn y llythyr a anfonais gyda’r bwriad o egluro’r hyn y gallaf ac ni allaf ei ddweud. Dylid ceisio cyfeirio’r maes hwnnw o gwestiynu i’r Gweinidogion portffolio, oherwydd gallant ddelio â phwnc y cwestiwn.

Comisiynydd y Cynulliad (Rhodri Glyn Thomas): Mae tîm arbennig ar waith i gynorthwyo Aelodau’r Cynulliad wrth iddynt gynllunio a threfnu ymweliadau gan lysgenhadon ac ymwelwyr arbennig eraill ag ystâd y Cynulliad. Bydd arweiniad pellach i gefnogi’r protocol yn cael ei gyflwyno i Aelodau a’u staff yn y flwyddyn newydd.

Assembly Commissioner (Rhodri Glyn Thomas): There is a dedicated team in place to assist Assembly Members with the planning and co-ordination of visits by ambassadors and other dignitaries to the Assembly estate. Further guidance to support the protocols will be issued to Members and their staff in the new year.

Mick Antoniw: I welcome that answer. The visit of the Cuban ambassador was a great pleasure, and I am sure that we will be the subject of many more international visits. From a Members’ point of view, where we have a particular interest, we want a simple point of contact to refer to so that the visit gets taken over from that stage.

Mick Antoniw: Croesawaf yr ateb hwnnw. Roedd ymweliad llysgennad Ciwba yn bleser mawr, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwn yn ymwneud â llawer mwy o ymweliadau rhyngwladol. O safbwynt Aelodau, lle mae gennym ddiddordeb arbennig, hoffwn bwynt cyswllt syml i gyfeirio ato er mwyn i’r ymweliad gael ei gymryd drosodd o’r pwynt hwnnw.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Yr oeddwn i hefyd yn falch iawn i gwrdd â llysgennad Ciwba, a wahoddwyd yma gan Mick Antoniw. Cefais hefyd y pleser o wahodd llysgennad Palesteina yma ddoe. Derbyniaf y pwynt mae Mick yn ei wneud, ond mae protocol ar waith. Byddwn yn darparu mwy o wybodaeth, gan nad wyf yn credu bod yr holl Aelodau yn ymwybodol o’r protocol. Hefyd, darparwn fwy o wybodaeth ar sut i gysylltu â’r tîm arbennig. Mae’r tîm yn brofiadol iawn wrth dderbyn ymwelwyr â’r Cynulliad, a gwnawn ein gorau i gynorthwyo Aelodau wrth iddynt gyflwyno’r gwahoddiadau hyn.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: I was also very pleased to meet the Cuban ambassador, who was invited here by Mick Antoniw. I also had the pleasure of inviting the Palestinian ambassador here yesterday. I accept Mick’s point, but the protocol is in place. We will provide greater information, because I do not think that all Members are aware of the protocol. We will also provide more information on how to get in touch with the specialist team. The team is very experienced in welcoming visitors to the Assembly, and we will do our best to assist Members as they make these invitations.

1.30 p.m.

Members of the public voted on a list of 20 other women who had made a significant contribution to women’s causes in Wales. I will bring that to the Commission’s attention, and I hope that other Members will write to me if they have any ideas.

Pleidleisiodd aelodau o'r cyhoedd ar restr o 20 o fenywod eraill a oedd wedi gwneud cyfraniad sylweddol at achosion menywod yng Nghymru. Byddaf yn dod â hynny i sylw'r Comisiwn, ac yr wyf yn gobeithio y bydd Aelodau eraill yn ysgrifennu ataf os oes ganddynt unrhyw syniadau.

Rebecca Evans: I welcome the Commission’s intention to produce a strategic equality plan by April of next year to ensure that the Assembly promotes equality, values diversity and respects human rights. How are you seeking to engage with women and women’s groups in the development of that plan?

Rebecca Evans: Croesawaf fwriad y Comisiwn i gynhyrchu cynllun cydraddoldeb strategol erbyn mis Ebrill y flwyddyn nesaf er mwyn sicrhau bod y Cynulliad yn hyrwyddo cydraddoldeb, yn gwerthfawrogi amrywiaeth ac yn parchu hawliau dynol. Sut ydych yn ceisio ymgysylltu â menywod a grwpiau menywod wrth ddatblygu’r cynllun hwnnw?

Sandy Mewies: Thank you for that question; I know of your great interest in this subject. As part of the Assembly’s consultation for the development of the strategic equality plan, we forwarded the consultation to Chwarae Teg, the National Federation of Women’s Institutes Wales, Merched y Wawr, Women Making a Difference and MEWN Cymru. So far, we have received responses from the National Federation of Women’s Institutes and Chwarae Teg. We have also held a focus group with Women Making a Difference and MEWN Cymru.

Sandy Mewies: Diolch am y cwestiwn hwnnw; gwn am eich diddordeb mawr yn y pwnc hwn. Fel rhan o ymgynghoriad y Cynulliad ar gyfer datblygiad y cynllun cydraddoldeb strategol, anfonwyd yr ymgynghoriad i Chwarae Teg, Ffederasiwn Cenedlaethol Sefydliadau’r Merched Cymru, Merched y Wawr, Merched yn Gwneud Gwahaniaeth a MEWN Cymru. Hyd yn hyn, rydym wedi cael ymatebion gan Ffederasiwn Cenedlaethol Sefydliadau’r Merched a Chwarae Teg. Rydym hefyd wedi cynnal grŵp ffocws gyda Merched yn Gwneud Gwahaniaeth a MEWN Cymru.

Cynnig NDM4862 Mick Antoniw, Nick Ramsay, Lindsay Whittle, Jocelyn Davies, Byron Davies, Vaughan Gething. Dafydd Elis-Thomas, Keith Davies, Christine Chapman, Lynne Neagle, Eluned Parrott

Motion NDM4862 Mick Antoniw, Nick Ramsay, Lindsay Whittle, Jocelyn Davies, Byron Davies, Vaughan Gething. Dafydd Elis-Thomas, Keith Davies, Christine Chapman, Lynne Neagle, Eluned Parrott

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn croesawu’r ystod eang o gefnogaeth, gan gynnwys gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ar gyfer system teithio cyflym integredig (metro) yn seiliedig ar rwydwaith rheilffyrdd y cymoedd;

1. Welcomes the broad range of support, including from the Welsh Government, for an integrated rapid transit system (metro) based on the valleys rail network;

2. Yn cydnabod nad yw trydaneiddio Rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd wedi’i ddatganoli a bod hynny’n rhagofyniad ar gyfer datblygu’r metro; ac

2. Acknowledges that the electrification of the Valleys’ Lines is a non-devolved matter and a pre-requisite of the development of the metro; and

3. Yn cydnabod y bydd y cyd-destun ariannol presennol, ynghyd â diffyg pwerau benthyca Llywodraeth Cymru, yn golygu y bydd y prosiect yn symud yn ei flaen bob yn dipyn ac y bydd yn galw am ddull cydweithredol wedi’i gydgysylltu gan Lywodraeth Cymru.

3. Recognises that the current financial context, coupled with the absence of Welsh Government borrowing powers, will result in incremental progress of the project and will require a collaborative approach co-ordinated by the Welsh Government.

Mick Antoniw: I move the motion in my name and the names of Nick Ramsay, Lindsay Whittle, Jocelyn Davies, Byron Davies, Vaughan Gething, Dafydd Elis-Thomas, Keith Davies, Christine Chapman, Lynne Neagle and Eluned Parrott, and with the names of Julie James and Mark Drakeford in support.

Mick Antoniw: Cynigiaf y cynnig yn fy enw i ac yn enwau Nick Ramsay, Lindsay Whittle, Jocelyn Davies, Byron Davies, Vaughan Gething, Dafydd Elis-Thomas, Keith Davies, Christine Chapman, Lynne Neagle ac Eluned Parrott, a chydag enwau Julie James a Mark Drakeford yn ei gefnogi.

It is an honour to be able to move this second backbenchers’ motion on a vision for the creation of a south Wales metro. It is a vision for a south Wales integrated transport system that we have all held for many years and which now becomes a real possibility. It is this vision that has resulted in this motion, which has the support of Members from all parties across the Chamber. It is an indication of the potential of this Assembly and its ability to strive for real change and benefit to the people of Wales when, on occasions such as this, it is able to work collectively for the common good with a unanimity of purpose.

Mae'n anrhydedd gallu cynnig yr ail gynnig hwn o’r meinciau cefn ar y weledigaeth i greu metro yn ne Cymru. Mae'n weledigaeth ar gyfer system drafnidiaeth integredig i dde Cymru sydd wedi bod gennym oll am nifer o flynyddoedd ac sydd bellach yn dod yn bosibilrwydd go iawn. Y weledigaeth hon a arweiniodd at y cynnig hwn, sydd â chefnogaeth Aelodau o bob plaid ar draws y Siambr. Mae'n arwydd o botensial y Cynulliad hwn a'i allu i ymdrechu am newid a budd gwirioneddol i bobl Cymru ei fod, ar adegau fel hyn, yn gallu gweithio ar y cyd er lles pawb yn unfryd o ran diben.

The convergence of three main catalysts presents an opportunity that rarely arises in politics. The devolution of transport and, in particular, the franchises of Arriva Wales and Network Rail Wales, presents an opportunity for the engagement of the main rail transport providers in the future structure and operation of the rail system. The electrification of the railway line to Cardiff and, hopefully, to Swansea, and, most importantly, of the Valleys lines, will create opportunities for the improvement and modernisation of the network. European structural funding will be targeted at large-scale projects, and this will enable us to look at combining road and rail infrastructure as well as an expansion and integration of the existing provision.

Mae cyfuniad tri phrif gatalydd yn rhoi cyfle sydd prin yn codi mewn gwleidyddiaeth. Mae datganoli trafnidiaeth ac, yn arbennig, masnachfreintiau Arriva Cymru a Network Rail Cymru, yn cynnig cyfle i ymgysylltu â'r prif ddarparwyr trafnidiaeth rheilffyrdd o ran strwythur a gweithrediad y system reilffyrdd yn y dyfodol. Mae trydaneiddio'r rheilffordd i Gaerdydd a, gobeithio, i Abertawe, ac, yn bwysicaf oll, rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd, yn creu cyfleoedd ar gyfer gwella a moderneiddio'r rhwydwaith. Bydd cyllid strwythurol Ewropeaidd yn cael ei dargedu at brosiectau ar raddfa fawr, a bydd hyn yn ein galluogi i edrych ar gyfuno seilwaith ffyrdd a rheilffyrdd yn ogystal ag ehangu ac integreiddio'r ddarpariaeth bresennol.

I refer to this as a vision, because there is still much work to be done to turn the vision into a reality. This will require consistent and dedicated leadership from the Welsh Government. The vision will be different for Members from different parts of Wales. Cardiff and Newport Members will see the immediate benefits for the Cardiff city region and Newport city. Originally, the idea was for a Cardiff metro, but the idea has moved on to a much broader and more progressive and inclusive agenda. For me, the benefits of an integrated transport system are not so much about the ability to travel into Cardiff for work or to access the immense facilities of Cardiff, but about the way that it has the real potential to open up the Valleys to its people, for local work and local Valleys-based economic development.

Cyfeiriaf at hyn fel gweledigaeth oherwydd mae llawer o waith i'w wneud i droi'r weledigaeth yn realiti. Bydd hyn yn gofyn am arweiniad cyson ac ymroddedig gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Bydd y weledigaeth yn wahanol ar gyfer Aelodau o wahanol rannau o Gymru. Bydd Aelodau Caerdydd a Chasnewydd yn gweld y manteision ar unwaith ar gyfer dinas-ranbarth Caerdydd a dinas Casnewydd. Yn wreiddiol, y syniad oedd cael metro ar gyfer Caerdydd, ond mae'r syniad wedi symud ymlaen i agenda llawer ehangach a mwy blaengar a chynhwysol. I mi, nid y gallu i deithio i mewn i Gaerdydd ar gyfer gwaith neu i gael mynediad at gyfleusterau aruthrol Caerdydd yw prif fantais system drafnidiaeth integredig, ond y ffordd y mae ganddi'r potensial gwirioneddol i agor y Cymoedd er lles pobl leol, gwaith lleol a datblygu economi leol y Cymoedd.

We have been aware for years of the major transport obstacles that exist for those wishing to travel across valley as well as down valley. We are all too aware of the difficulty in achieving investment beyond the M4 and A470 corridors. An integrated transport system will enable us to open up the Valleys to real economic and social improvement in a way in which improvements to the road system simply cannot achieve. We also know that, irrespective of how many roads and bypasses we build, we will not in the future be able to sustain the predicted increase in road transport. Our road system is already gridlocked at peak times, and it is understandable that many people have no option but to use cars, because the public transport system cannot get them to where they need to be and back within reasonable times and with the reliability that is needed. Unless we can offer a real public transport alternative to the car, we have no hope of resolving this dilemma.

Rydym wedi bod yn ymwybodol ers blynyddoedd o'r rhwystrau difrifol sy'n effeithio ar bobl sy’n dymuno teithio ar draws y Cymoedd ac ar hyd y Cymoedd. Rydym yn gwybod yn iawn pa mor anodd yw sicrhau buddsoddiad y tu hwnt i goridorau'r M4 a'r A470. Bydd system drafnidiaeth integredig yn ein galluogi i agor y Cymoedd i welliant economaidd a chymdeithasol go iawn mewn ffordd na all welliannau i'r system ffyrdd ei chyflawni. Rydym hefyd yn gwybod, ni waeth faint o ffyrdd a ffyrdd osgoi yr ydym yn eu hadeiladu, na fyddwn yn y dyfodol yn gallu cynnal y cynnydd a ragwelir mewn trafnidiaeth ar y ffordd. Mae ein system ffyrdd eisoes wedi’i thagu ar adegau prysur, ac mae'n ddealladwy nad oes gan lawer o bobl unrhyw ddewis ond defnyddio ceir, oherwydd na all y system drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus eu cludo i ble y mae angen iddynt fod ac yn ôl mewn amser rhesymol ac mewn modd dibynadwy. Oni bai ein bod yn gallu cynnig dewis gwirioneddol o drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn lle’r car, nid oes gennym unrhyw obaith o ddatrys y broblem hon.

The possibility of linking in the work of Sustrans and local councils in developing our cycle network adds to the options that would become available, not only for a more environmentally sustainable system, but one that offers broader travel choices between car, bicycle, train, bus and even tram. I also have in mind the possibility of not only improving rail and bus links, but of reopening certain rail links where the infrastructure remains intact but the resources have not been available to reopen train services. In my constituency, reopening the Pontyclun to Beddau line might once again become more than a plan sitting in an office, and might become a reality. Opening Pontypridd station up to high-speed connections might also become a possibility. There has been the suggestion of a direct, high-speed 125 service from London to Pontypridd, and I ask: why not? Other Members will have their own ambitions for their constituencies.

Mae'r posibilrwydd o gysylltu gwaith Sustrans a chynghorau lleol o ran datblygu ein rhwydwaith beicio yn ychwanegu at yr opsiynau a fyddai ar gael, nid yn unig ar gyfer system fwy cynaliadwy yn amgylcheddol, ond un sy'n cynnig dewisiadau teithio ehangach rhwng ceir, beiciau, trenau, bysiau a hyd yn oed tramiau. Rwyf hefyd yn ystyried y posibilrwydd nid yn unig o wella cysylltiadau rheilffyrdd a bysiau, ond o ailagor rhai cysylltiadau rheilffyrdd lle y mae'r seilwaith yn parhau i fod yno ond na fu'r adnoddau ar gael i ailagor y gwasanaethau trên. Yn fy etholaeth i, gallai ailagor llinell Pontyclun i Feddau unwaith eto ddod yn fwy na chynllun sy’n hel llwch mewn swyddfa, ac efallai y gallai ddod yn realiti. Gallai agor gorsaf Pontypridd i gysylltiadau cyflym hefyd ddod yn bosibilrwydd. Cafwyd awgrym o wasanaeth uniongyrchol, cyflym 125 o Lundain i Bontypridd, a gofynnaf: pam ddim? Bydd gan Aelodau eraill eu huchelgeisiau eu hunain ar gyfer eu hetholaethau.

Let us also look at the airports. We recently discussed the demise of Cardiff Airport. We need the airport to become part of our integrated transport plans; this is fundamental. It is essential that the airport is developed not only as a tourist hub, but as a business and freight terminal that is part of a broader economic strategy.

Gadewch inni hefyd edrych ar y meysydd awyr. Yn ddiweddar, trafodwyd tranc Maes Awyr Caerdydd. Mae angen i’r maes awyr ddod yn rhan o'n cynlluniau trafnidiaeth integredig; mae hyn yn sylfaenol. Mae'n hanfodol bod y maes awyr yn cael ei ddatblygu nid yn unig fel canolbwynt i dwristiaid, ond fel terfynell busnes a nwyddau sy'n rhan o strategaeth economaidd ehangach.

The project, in its own right, has the capacity to create jobs in some of our most deprived communities. The electrification of the Valleys lines, at an estimated cost of £300 million, is required. This is the key trigger on which the whole project depends, which is why a unified message of support from the Assembly is so important. Following this, possible investment of around £1.5 billion will be required over the next 15 or 20 years to develop the metro system around electrification. At £150 million a year for the potential economic benefits, this is achievable. Similar projects, such as that in Manchester, have shown what can be achieved. In fact, they show what must be achieved if south Wales is to be opened up and if it is to be attractive to investment. The £1 billion extension of the Manchester metro has secured a £500 million loan from the European Investment Bank. West Yorkshire councils have put together plans to create a £1 billion transport fund. I believe that we will be failing the Welsh people if we are any less ambitious than they are.

Mae gan y prosiect, yn ei rinwedd ei hun, y gallu i greu swyddi yn rhai o'n cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig. Mae angen trydaneiddio rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd, am gost amcangyfrifedig o £300 miliwn. Dyma’r sbardun allweddol y mae'r prosiect cyfan yn dibynnu arno, a dyna pam y mae neges unedig o gefnogaeth gan y Cynulliad mor bwysig. Yn dilyn hyn, bydd angen buddsoddiad posibl o tua £1.5 biliwn dros y 15 neu 20 mlynedd nesaf i ddatblygu'r system metro o amgylch y gwaith trydaneiddio. Am £150 miliwn y flwyddyn o fanteision economaidd posibl, mae hyn yn gyraeddadwy. Mae prosiectau tebyg, fel yr un ym Manceinion, wedi dangos yr hyn y gellir ei gyflawni. Yn wir, maent yn dangos yr hyn y mae'n rhaid ei gyflawni os ydym am agor y drws i dde Cymru a’i gwneud yn ddeniadol i fuddsoddiad. Mae’r gwaith i ymestyn metro Manceinion, sy’n werth £1 biliwn, wedi sicrhau benthyciad o £500 miliwn gan Fanc Buddsoddi Ewrop. Mae cynghorau gorllewin Swydd Efrog wedi paratoi cynlluniau i greu cronfa trafnidiaeth gwerth £1 biliwn. Credaf y byddwn yn gwneud cam â phobl Cymru os ydym yn llai uchelgeisiol nag y maent hwy.

None of this is easy. It requires commitment and buy-in from all interested parties—from local councils to businesses, railway and bus companies, other transport companies and trade unions. It may even require the creation of a body, such as a south Wales metro development corporation, to drive the project forward over the next 20 years or so. We are not talking about something that will happen overnight, but something that will develop incrementally over the next 20 years or so. It therefore requires vision and long-term commitment.

Nid yw hyn yn hawdd. Mae angen ymrwymiad ac ymroddiad gan yr holl bartïon â diddordeb—o gynghorau lleol i fusnesau, cwmnïau rheilffyrdd a bysiau, cwmnïau trafnidiaeth eraill ac undebau llafur. Gallai hyd yn oed fod angen creu corff, megis corfforaeth ddatblygu metro de Cymru, i yrru'r prosiect yn ei flaen dros yr 20 mlynedd nesaf. Nid ydym yn sôn am rywbeth a fydd yn digwydd dros nos, ond rywbeth a fydd yn datblygu gam wrth gam dros yr 20 mlynedd nesaf. Felly, mae angen gweledigaeth ac ymrwymiad hirdymor.

Given these timescales, I and many other Assembly Members may not even be around at the completion of the metro. However, if there is an afterlife, we will undoubtedly be looking down—or, in some cases, looking up—to witness what has been achieved. I am not looking in any particular direction when I say that. The challenge for the Welsh Government is to turn this vision into a reality. It requires immense financial and political commitment, but the real issue for us is not choosing whether we can afford to do it, but the fact that we cannot afford not to do it. With devolution and a Welsh Government in place, we have a unique opportunity to transform the long-term economic fortunes of south Wales, the Valleys and Wales as a whole.

O ystyried yr amserlenni hyn, efallai na fyddaf i na llawer o Aelodau eraill y Cynulliad o gwmpas pan gaiff y metro ei gwblhau. Fodd bynnag, os oes bywyd ar ôl marwolaeth, byddwn yn sicr yn edrych i lawr—neu, mewn rhai achosion, yn edrych i fyny—i weld yr hyn sydd wedi'i gyflawni. Nid wyf yn edrych mewn unrhyw gyfeiriad penodol wrth ddweud hynny. Yr her i Lywodraeth Cymru yw troi'r weledigaeth hon yn realiti. Mae'n gofyn am ymrwymiad ariannol a gwleidyddol enfawr, ond nid dewis a allwn fforddio gwneud hyn yw’r broblem go iawn i ni, ond y ffaith na allwn fforddio peidio â gwneud hyn. Gyda datganoli a Llywodraeth Cymru ar waith, mae gennym gyfle unigryw i drawsnewid ffawd economaidd hirdymor de Cymru, y Cymoedd a Chymru gyfan.

Nick Ramsay: I am delighted to be taking part in today’s debate and to agree with all of the sentiments that Mick Antoniw has expressed in his opening address. This is a really exciting debate. As Mick inferred, if we ultimately want to achieve this goal, it is going to take a long time and a lot of planning, and maybe some of us will be looking down or looking up at its completion since, as Mick said, we probably will not be here then. It is important that we lay the foundations on which we can move forward. The idea of a rapid transport system to connect the whole of the south Wales area has been around for a number of years. However, it is only in the last 12 months that firm plans and proposals have been put in place to enable stakeholders to have a view of what is on offer. The plans put forward by the Cardiff business partnership and the Institute of Welsh Affairs propose providing a more integrated connection between Cardiff and Newport in the south, and the towns of the south Wales Valleys heading north. They aim to use the current railway network, making use of any future electrification that is funded by the UK Government and connecting some of these towns by using trams or buses.

Nick Ramsay: Yr wyf yn falch iawn o gael cymryd rhan yn y ddadl heddiw ac rwy’n cytuno â phob un o'r safbwyntiau a fynegwyd gan Mick Antoniw yn ei anerchiad agoriadol. Mae hon yn ddadl hynod o gyffrous. Fel y dywedodd Mick, os ydym yn y pen draw am gyflawni’r nod hwn, mae'n mynd i gymryd amser hir a llawer o gynllunio, ac efallai y bydd rhai ohonom yn edrych i lawr neu’n edrych i fyny ar ei gyflawniad, oherwydd, fel y dywedodd Mick, mae’n debyg na fyddwn yma bryd hynny. Mae'n bwysig ein bod yn gosod y sylfeini fel y gallwn symud ymlaen. Mae'r syniad o system drafnidiaeth gyflym i gysylltu ardal de Cymru yn ei chyfanrwydd wedi bod o gwmpas ers nifer o flynyddoedd. Fodd bynnag, dim ond yn ystod y 12 mis diwethaf y mae cynlluniau a chynigion pendant wedi’u rhoi ar waith i alluogi rhanddeiliaid i gael golwg ar yr hyn sy'n cael ei gynnig. Mae'r cynlluniau a gyflwynwyd gan  bartneriaeth fusnes Caerdydd a’r Sefydliad Materion Cymreig yn cynnig darparu cysylltiad mwy integredig rhwng Caerdydd a Chasnewydd yn y de, a threfi Cymoedd y de tua'r gogledd. Eu nod yw defnyddio'r rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd presennol, gan wneud defnydd o unrhyw waith trydaneiddio yn y dyfodol sy'n cael ei ariannu gan Lywodraeth y DU a chysylltu rhai o'r trefi hyn trwy ddefnyddio tramiau neu fysiau.

For this project to work, it is essential that electrification of the Valleys lines takes place as soon as is practically possible. This is something for which we will all lobby hard with the new Westminster Minister for transport. It is important that the Welsh Government also works closely with the Department for Transport to secure this investment as soon as possible. I know that a full business plan is being put forward for consideration.

Er mwyn i’r prosiect weithio, mae'n hanfodol trydaneiddio rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd cyn gynted ag sy'n ymarferol bosibl. Mae hyn yn rhywbeth y byddwn oll yn lobïo’n galed amdano gyda'r Gweinidog trafnidiaeth newydd yn San Steffan. Mae'n bwysig bod Llywodraeth Cymru hefyd yn gweithio'n agos â'r Adran Drafnidiaeth i sicrhau'r buddsoddiad hwn cyn gynted ag y bo modd. Gwn fod cynllun busnes llawn yn cael ei gyflwyno i'w ystyried.

There are two questions that I want to focus on in my contribution. The first is the question of need. Looking at the statistics, figures published earlier this year have identified that 100,000 people travel to Cardiff and Newport from within a 20-mile radius each day. The scale of this commute puts a huge amount of pressure on the current transport options—if extra capacity and routes were provided, I am sure that they would be well used, especially during peak times. The Minister for business has recently identified Cardiff as being the site of an enterprise zone that will focus on the financial services sector. It is hoped that this designation, coupled with the investment of £60 million in the central business district, will see firms looking to locate and expand within the centre of Cardiff, which in turn will see an increase in the number of people needing to travel into the city centre. If Cardiff wants to compete with other major European capital cities for investment and growth, then it needs a transport system that is fit for purpose. It should be noted that other major cities, such as Manchester, Birmingham, Sheffield and Nottingham all have well-established light rail or tram systems in place to move people around and in and out of their city centres.

Hoffwn ganolbwyntio ar ddau gwestiwn yn fy nghyfraniad. Y cyntaf yw'r cwestiwn o angen. O ystyried yr ystadegau, mae’r ffigurau a gyhoeddwyd yn gynharach eleni yn nodi bod 100,000 o bobl yn teithio i Gaerdydd a Chasnewydd o fewn radiws o 20 milltir bob dydd. Mae hynny’n rhoi llawer iawn o bwysau ar yr opsiynau trafnidiaeth presennol—pe bai capasiti a llwybrau ychwanegol yn cael eu darparu, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddent yn cael eu defnyddio'n dda, yn enwedig yn ystod yr oriau brig. Yn ddiweddar, mae'r Gweinidog busnes wedi enwi Caerdydd fel safle parth menter a fydd yn canolbwyntio ar y sector gwasanaethau ariannol. Y gobaith yw y bydd y dynodiad hwn, ynghyd â'r buddsoddiad o £60 miliwn yn yr ardal fusnes ganolog, yn golygu y bydd cwmnïau am agor safleoedd ac ehangu yng nghanol Caerdydd, a fydd yn ei dro yn arwain at gynnydd yn nifer y bobl sy’n gorfod teithio i ganol y ddinas. Os yw Caerdydd am gystadlu â phrifddinasoedd mawr eraill Ewrop ar gyfer buddsoddiad a thwf, yna mae angen system drafnidiaeth arni sy'n addas at y diben. Dylid nodi bod systemau rheilffyrdd ysgafn neu dramiau ar waith ers tro mewn dinasoedd mawr eraill, megis Manceinion, Birmingham, Sheffield a Nottingham, i symud pobl o gwmpas a’u cludo i mewn ac allan o ganol y ddinas.

Over 40 per cent of public sector growth in Wales between 1998 and 2008 occurred in Cardiff, and for this to continue it is vital that the transport infrastructure can support the demands being made of it. The previous speaker spoke about problems with our road network; no matter how much investment you have there, there is no doubt that if we want to have a modern transport infrastructure in Cardiff, then this sort of project is crucial to delivering it.

Yng Nghaerdydd y cafwyd dros 40 y cant o dwf y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru rhwng 1998 a 2008, ac os yw hyn i barhau, mae'n hanfodol y gall y seilwaith trafnidiaeth fodloni'r gofynion a wneir ohono. Soniodd y siaradwr blaenorol am broblemau gyda’n rhwydwaith ffyrdd; ni waeth faint o fuddsoddiad sydd gennych yno, nid oes amheuaeth os ydym am gael seilwaith trafnidiaeth modern yng Nghaerdydd, yna mae’r math hwn o brosiect yn hanfodol i’w wireddu.

On the issue of costings, from figures published by BBC Wales last February, it is estimated that the total cost for a rapid transit scheme would amount to around £2.5 billion over 10 years. This would include the cost of new trains, upgrading lines and stations, and other associated costs. Although the figure of £2.5 billion seems high, it must be seen in the context of other major infrastructure transport plans, such as Crossrail in London, which is currently estimated at £15 billion.

O ran costau, yn ôl y ffigurau a gyhoeddwyd gan BBC Cymru fis Chwefror diwethaf, amcangyfrifir y byddai cynllun trafnidiaeth cyflym yn costio cyfanswm o tua £2.5 biliwn dros 10 mlynedd. Byddai hyn yn cynnwys costau trenau newydd, uwchraddio llinellau a gorsafoedd, a chostau cysylltiedig eraill. Er bod £2.5 biliwn yn ymddangos yn uchel, mae’n rhaid ei ystyried yng nghyd-destun cynlluniau trafnidiaeth seilwaith mawr eraill, fel Crossrail yn Llundain, yr amcangyfrifir y bydd yn costio £15 biliwn ar hyn o bryd.

I think that we all appreciate that committing a large amount of money may well be contentious in the current economic climate, but, spread over 10 years, that expenditure amounts to £250 million per year, and looking at the potential benefits of such a scheme in the long term, in that light, the cost seems less. It seems to me that the challenge for supporters of this project is to present a compelling enough argument for the vital importance of this scheme. We need to demonstrate its importance to the people and the businesses of the south Wales Valleys, Cardiff and Newport, and to the wider Welsh economy. I am sure that AMs who represent areas in south Wales, and those who represent areas further afield, will have different bids that they would like to put in, and there will be different parts of the project that they would like to support.

Credaf ein bod i gyd yn gwerthfawrogi y gallai ymrwymo swm mawr o arian fod yn ddadleuol yn yr hinsawdd economaidd bresennol, ond os caiff yr arian ei wario dros 10 mlynedd, y gost fyddai £250 miliwn y flwyddyn, ac o gofio manteision posibl y fath gynllun yn y tymor hir, yng ngoleuni hynny, mae’r gost yn ymddangos yn llai. Mae'n ymddangos i mi mai’r her ar gyfer cefnogwyr y prosiect yw cyflwyno dadl ddigon cryf dros bwysigrwydd hanfodol y cynllun hwn. Mae angen dangos ei bwysigrwydd i bobl a busnesau Cymoedd de Cymru, Caerdydd a Chasnewydd, ac i economi ehangach Cymru. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd gan Aelodau Cynulliad sy'n cynrychioli ardaloedd yn ne Cymru, a’r rhai sy’n cynrychioli ardaloedd ymhellach i ffwrdd, wahanol geisiadau y byddent yn hoffi eu gwneud, ac y byddant am gefnogi gwahanol rannau o'r prosiect.

I am very happy to support the motion. I look forward to hearing the views of other speakers, many of whom have expressed support for this debate. If we can get the ball rolling and get this idea out there, hopefully, somewhere down the line, this can become a reality and, ultimately, that will be to the benefit of all who live in Wales.

Yr wyf yn hapus iawn i gefnogi'r cynnig. Edrychaf ymlaen at glywed barn siaradwyr eraill—mae llawer ohonynt wedi mynegi cefnogaeth ar gyfer y ddadl hon. Os gallwn gychwyn pethau a chyflwyno’r syniad hwn, gobeithio, yn y dyfodol, gall hyn ddod yn realiti a chreu budd, yn y pen draw, i bawb sy'n byw yng Nghymru.

Jocelyn Davies: I am very pleased to have the opportunity to speak in this debate, and I am delighted to speak in support of the concept of a comprehensive, world-class metro system that would encompass Cardiff, Newport and the Valleys. My support is based on three broad considerations: first, that the Welsh economy cannot afford to fall further behind that of other nations in the UK; secondly, that a high-speed, high-capacity public transport system is essential for a region that has a population of around 1.2 million, if we are to encourage people out of their cars; and thirdly, the region that we are referring to includes some of the most prosperous communities in the country and some of the poorest. That gives us the opportunity to redress inequality and redistribute job opportunities.

Jocelyn Davies: Yr wyf yn falch iawn o gael y cyfle i siarad yn y ddadl hon, ac yr wyf wrth fy modd yn siarad o blaid y cysyniad o system metro gynhwysfawr, o'r radd flaenaf a fyddai'n cwmpasu Caerdydd, Casnewydd a'r Cymoedd. Mae fy nghefnogaeth yn seiliedig ar dair ystyriaeth fras: yn gyntaf, na all economi Cymru fforddio syrthio ymhellach y tu ôl i genhedloedd eraill y DU; yn ail, bod system drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus gyflym â chapasiti uchel yn hanfodol ar gyfer rhanbarth sydd â phoblogaeth o tua 1.2 miliwn, os ydym am annog pobl i beidio â defnyddio eu ceir; ac yn drydydd, bod y rhanbarth yr ydym yn cyfeirio ato yn cynnwys rhai o'r cymunedau mwyaf ffyniannus yn y wlad a rhai o'r tlotaf. Mae hynny’n rhoi cyfle i ni unioni anghydraddoldeb ac ailddosbarthu cyfleoedd gwaith.

1.45 p.m.

On the first point, we are all very aware of the performance of the Welsh economy over several decades in terms of GDP compared to the other nations in the UK. The current economic conditions bring into sharper focus the misery of unemployment, especially youth unemployment, in so many of our communities. We are all aware of the shocking statistics related to health and wellbeing and education that follow high and continuous levels of unemployment, but we also know that one of the main cornerstones of a vibrant economy is a modern transport system. Without one, our aim of reversing the long-term decline of the Welsh economy becomes increasingly difficult. It is also worth keeping in mind that, as a nation, and, indeed, as a National Assembly, we have almost none of the major economic tools at the disposal of Parliaments and Assemblies around Europe that enjoy the normal status of independence. That means that we must use other tools to the maximum and transport policy is obviously a place to start.

O ran y pwynt cyntaf, yr ydym i gyd yn ymwybodol iawn o berfformiad economi Cymru dros sawl degawd o ran cynnyrch domestig gros o’i gymharu â gwledydd eraill yn y DU. Mae’r amodau economaidd presennol yn amlygu trallod diweithdra, yn enwedig diweithdra ymhlith ieuenctid, mewn cymaint o’n cymunedau. Yr ydym i gyd yn ymwybodol o’r ystadegau brawychus sy’n ymwneud ag iechyd a lles ac addysg sy’n dilyn lefelau uchel a pharhaus o ddiweithdra, ond gwyddom hefyd mai un o brif gonglfeini economi fywiog yw system drafnidiaeth fodern. Hebddi, mae ein nod o wrthdroi dirywiad hirdymor economi Cymru yn dod yn fwyfwy anodd. Mae hefyd yn werth cadw mewn cof nad oes gennym fel cenedl ac, yn wir, fel Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, bron dim o’r arfau economaidd mawr y gall Seneddau a Chynulliadau o amgylch Ewrop sy’n mwynhau statws arferol annibyniaeth eu defnyddio. Mae hynny’n golygu bod yn rhaid i ni ddefnyddio arfau eraill i’r eithaf ac mae polisi trafnidiaeth yn lle amlwg i ddechrau.

As mentioned previously by the Member for Pontypridd, we have an important role to play in encouraging people out of their cars by providing a viable alternative—an alternative that is affordable, convenient and one that people will want to use. Members who have had the opportunity to read Mark Barry’s report, published by the Institute of Welsh Affairs, will be aware of the ambitious proposals for a metro system with short waiting times, fast connections and full integration of timetables from high-speed rail to buses. These are proposals for a modern metro system that will bring our two south-easterly cities and our Valleys communities together. However, my primary motivation for supporting these fledgling plans is the opportunity that they provide to create and spread prosperity. Proud places with rich heritage, such as Merthyr Tydfil, Tredegar and Ebbw Vale, and all our Valleys towns, have generated huge wealth over long periods. Such communities, however, did not benefit in the long term from that wealth and we must make sure that next time they will. Giving businesses and companies an opportunity to invest and grow there, knowing that they will have access to a modern transport system, will provide a huge boost to local SMEs.

Fel y soniodd yr Aelod dros Bontypridd o’r blaen, mae gennym rôl bwysig i’w chwarae wrth annog pobl i adael eu ceir drwy ddarparu dewis amgen hyfyw—dewis amgen sy’n fforddiadwy, yn gyfleus ac yn un y bydd pobl am ei ddefnyddio. Bydd yr Aelodau sydd wedi cael y cyfle i ddarllen adroddiad Mark Barry, a gyhoeddwyd gan y Sefydliad Materion Cymreig, yn ymwybodol o’r cynigion uchelgeisiol ar gyfer system metro gydag amseroedd aros byr a chysylltiadau cyflym ac sydd yn integreiddio amserlenni rheilffordd gyflym a bysiau yn llawn. Mae’r rhain yn gynigion ar gyfer system metro modern a fydd yn dod â’n dwy ddinas yn y de-ddwyrain a’n cymunedau yn y Cymoedd at ei gilydd. Fodd bynnag, fy mhrif symbyliad dros gefnogi’r egin gynlluniau hyn yw’r cyfle y maent yn eu darparu i greu a lledaenu ffyniant. Mae mannau balch gyda threftadaeth gyfoethog fel Merthyr Tudful, Tredegar a Glyn Ebwy, a’n holl drefydd yn y Cymoedd, wedi creu cyfoeth enfawr dros gyfnodau hir. Ni elwodd cymunedau o’r fath, fodd bynnag, yn yr hirdymor ar y cyfoeth hwnnw a rhaid i ni wneud yn siŵr y byddant y tro nesaf. Bydd rhoi cyfle i fusnesau a chwmnïau i fuddsoddi a thyfu yno, gan wybod y byddant yn cael mynediad at system drafnidiaeth fodern, yn rhoi hwb enfawr i fusnesau bach a chanolig lleol.

There is also another benefit. I was very proud in the last Assembly to serve as Deputy Minister for Housing and Regeneration, and, in that role, I saw at first hand what Governments can do to turn around communities and people’s lives. We can do that with transport. It could provide for viable alternative locations for important national institutions outside of the capital city. With a metro system such as the one proposed, we could have argued for the Wales Millennium Centre to have been built in Merthyr or Ebbw Vale. The future for our communities in the south-east does not end with the completion of the metro system; it begins there and public bodies, including Government, have a responsibility to use such opportunities to implement ambitious plans for our people.

Mae budd arall hefyd. Yr oeddwn yn falch iawn i wasanaethu fel Dirprwy Weinidog dros Dai ac Adfywio yn y Cynulliad diwethaf, ac, yn y rôl honno, gwelais yn uniongyrchol yr hyn y gall Llywodraethau ei wneud i drawsnewid cymunedau a bywydau pobl. Gallwn wneud hynny â thrafnidiaeth. Gallai ddarparu lleoliadau amgen hyfyw ar gyfer sefydliadau cenedlaethol pwysig y tu allan i’r brifddinas. Gyda system metro fel yr un a gynigir, gallem fod wedi dadlau o blaid adeiladu Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru ym Merthyr neu Lynebwy. Nid yw dyfodol ein cymunedau yn y de-ddwyrain yn dod i ben gyda chwblhau’r system metro; mae’n dechrau yno. Mae gan gyrff cyhoeddus, gan gynnwys y Llywodraeth, gyfrifoldeb i ddefnyddio cyfleoedd o’r fath i roi cynlluniau uchelgeisiol ar gyfer ein pobl ar waith.

Wales is often spoken of as a small country, and in such terms it seems that we often shy away from big and ambitious prospects. As far as I am concerned, we are only as small as our ambitions, and, in that sense, Wales is the biggest country on earth. I urge you to support this exciting project.

Sonnir am Gymru yn aml fel gwlad fach, ac yn y fath dermau fel y mae’n ymddangos ein bod yn aml yn osgoi rhagolygon mawr ac uchelgeisiol. O’m rhan i, ein huchelgais sy’n diffinio’n maint, ac, yn yr ystyr hwnnw, Cymru yw’r wlad fwyaf ar y ddaear. Fe’ch anogaf i gefnogi’r prosiect cyffrous hwn.

Christine Chapman: I support previous Members’ comments on this. As someone who represents a constituency that has been disadvantaged over the years with regard to good transport links, and who knows the impact this has on its economic potential, I am very happy to support this motion today. An integrated transport system, as is being proposed, is of course expensive, but politics is about priorities, and we need to be ambitious if we want to deliver for communities like mine. While we tend to see a metro mainly in relation to Valleys to Cardiff and Cardiff to Valleys journeys, we should recognise the increasing opportunities it would afford for inter-valley connections. It would tackle the sort of problem that I was aware of not so long ago when some of my constituents could not take up employment opportunities in Merthyr because reliable transport links at an appropriate time were not available.

Christine Chapman: Yr wyf yn cefnogi sylwadau blaenorol gan Aelodau ar hyn. Fel rhywun sy’n cynrychioli etholaeth sydd wedi bod dan anfantais dros y blynyddoedd o ran cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth da, ac sy’n gwybod beth yw effaith hyn ar ei photensial economaidd, yr wyf yn hapus iawn i gefnogi’r cynnig hwn heddiw. Mae system drafnidiaeth integredig, fel sy’n cael ei gynnig, yn ddrud, wrth gwrs, ond mae gwleidyddiaeth yn ymwneud â blaenoriaethau, ac mae angen i ni fod yn uchelgeisiol os ydym am ddarparu ar gyfer cymunedau fel fy un i. Er ein bod yn tueddu i weld metro yn bennaf mewn perthynas â theithiau o’r Cymoedd i Gaerdydd a Chaerdydd i’r Cymoedd, dylem gydnabod y cyfleoedd cynyddol y byddai’n cynnig ar gyfer cysylltiadau o gwm i gwm.  Byddai’n mynd i’r afael â’r math o broblem yr oeddwn yn ymwybodol ohono yn eithaf diweddar pan na allai rhai o’m hetholwyr fanteisio ar gyfleoedd cyflogaeth ym Merthyr achos diffyg cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth dibynadwy ar adeg briodol.

Again, I very much welcome the recognition in the proposal that this would include a link to Hirwaun, which a number of us have discussed previously. That would make a huge difference to employment prospects and provide better access for residents in the Heads of the Valleys area. We know that there is a disproportionate amount of economic inactivity in that area.

Unwaith eto, pwysleisiaf fy mod yn croesawu’r gydnabyddiaeth yn y cynnig y byddai hyn yn cynnwys cysylltiad â Hirwaun, y mae nifer ohonom wedi’i drafod o’r blaen. Byddai hynny’n gwneud gwahaniaeth enfawr i ragolygon cyflogaeth a darparu mynediad gwell i drigolion yn ardal Blaenau’r Cymoedd. Gwyddom fod yna swm anghymesur o anweithgarwch economaidd yn yr ardal honno.

One of the Welsh Government’s manifesto commitments is about breathing new life into our town centres. We have great heritage in the Valleys, as Jocelyn Davies mentioned, and it is good that tourism is now opening up in Valleys towns. However, if we are to capitalise on all of that, we need our Valleys towns to be fully accessible. I will give you an example. I was concerned to read some research findings by the Valleys the Heart and Soul of Wales campaign, which found that 47 per cent of people in Cardiff, Newport and Swansea—which are relatively close—had never visited the Valleys. That represents a huge untapped market, which could, if addressed, enhance the prosperity of the Valleys. So, there is real difficulty already among communities in Wales. The introduction of such a transport system could help in that regard. 

Mae un o ymrwymiadau maniffesto Llywodraeth Cymru yn ymwneud ag adfywhau canol ein trefi. Mae gennym dreftadaeth fawr yn y Cymoedd, fel y crybwyllodd Jocelyn Davies, a da gweld bod twristiaeth yn awr yn blaguro yn nhrefi’r Cymoedd. Fodd bynnag, os ydym am fanteisio ar hynny i gyd, mae arnom angen i’n trefi yn y Cymoedd i fod yn gwbl hygyrch. Rhoddaf enghraifft i chi. Yr oeddwn yn bryderus wrth ddarllen rhai canfyddiadau ymchwil gan ymgyrch Y Cymoedd Calon ac Enaid Cymru, a ganfu fod 47 y cant o bobl yng Nghaerdydd, Casnewydd ac Abertawe—sy’n eithaf agos—erioed wedi ymweld â’r Cymoedd. Mae hynny’n cynrychioli marchnad enfawr sydd heb ei gyffwrdd, a allai, o gael sylw, wella ffyniant y Cymoedd. Felly, mae yna anhawster gwirioneddol eisoes ymhlith cymunedau yng Nghymru. Gallai cyflwyno system drafnidiaeth o’r fath helpu yn hynny o beth. 

Finally, I think that this integrated transport system would start to address radically the lack of a night-time economy in the Valleys. Many of our Valleys towns and villages are ghost towns and villages in the evenings, because of transport difficulties. How much revenue is lost to our Valleys town-centre pubs and entertainment venues due to their inaccessibility at night? We know that potential visitors choose to stay at home or to go elsewhere if they are unable to return home safely on public transport. Addressing that not only transforms economies, but can also transform our communities.

Yn olaf, yr wyf yn meddwl y byddai’r system drafnidiaeth integredig hon yn dechrau mynd i’r afael yn radical â’r diffyg economi gyda’r nos yn y Cymoedd. Mae llawer o’n trefi a’n pentrefi yn y Cymoedd yn anghyfannedd yn y nos, oherwydd anawsterau trafnidiaeth. Faint o refeniw mae ein tafarndai canol tref a lleoliadau adloniant yn y Cymoedd yn colli am ei fod mor anodd eu cyrraedd yn y nos? Gwyddom fod ymwelwyr posibl yn dewis aros yn eu cartrefi neu fynd rhywle arall os na allant ddychwelyd adref yn ddiogel ar drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus. Wrth fynd i’r afael â hynny, bydd tro ar fyd yn ein heconomïau, a gall fod hefyd yn ein cymunedau.

Again, I support other Members in this. It is about being ambitious and we really do need to be ambitious in relation to this proposal.

Unwaith eto, yr wyf yn cefnogi Aelodau eraill ar hyn. Mae’n ymwneud ag uchelgais ac mae gwir angen uchelgais arnom mewn perthynas â’r cynnig hwn.

Eluned Parrott: I, too, am pleased to contribute to this debate and I would like to thank Mick Antoniw for putting this together for us. South Wales city regions have the potential to be a real economic powerhouse for Wales, but there are practical barriers that could cripple their progress. An ageing and inefficient transport infrastructure is just such a barrier. If we are to develop effective city regions, we must be able to move our people about effectively. Christine Chapman talked about the fear that people might think that this is an expensive luxury, but it is not as expensive to our economy as doing nothing would be. It is an investment and one that, as she rightly says, will not only have economic benefits but also provide a massive social payback in giving people the opportunity to move freely between communities. We must modernise. However, we must ensure that we are not only planning for today but grabbing this opportunity to build capacity and service improvements for the future.

Eluned Parrott: Yr wyf fi hefyd yn falch o gyfrannu at y ddadl hon, a hoffwn ddiolch i Mick Antoniw am roi hyn at ei gilydd i ni. Mae gan ddinas-ranbarthau de Cymru’r potensial i fod yn bwerdy economaidd gwirioneddol dros Gymru, ond mae rhwystrau ymarferol a allai andwyo eu cynnydd. Mae seilwaith trafnidiaeth sy’n heneiddio ac yn aneffeithlon yn rhwystr o’r fath. Os ydym i ddatblygu dinas-ranbarthau effeithiol, mae’n rhaid i ni allu symud ein pobl o gwmpas yn effeithiol. Soniodd Christine Chapman am yr ofn y gallai pobl feddwl bod hyn yn foeth costus, ond nid yw mor gostus i’n heconomi ag y byddai llaesu dwylo. Mae’n fuddsoddiad ac yn un, fel y dywedodd hi’n gywir, a ddaw â manteision economaidd, ond bydd hefyd yn darparu ad-daliad cymdeithasol enfawr drwy roi cyfle i bobl symud yn ddirwystr rhwng cymunedau. Mae’n rhaid i ni foderneiddio. Fodd bynnag, mae’n rhaid i ni sicrhau nad ydym yn cynllunio ar gyfer heddiw yn unig, ond ein bod yn bachu ar y cyfle hwn i adeiladu capasiti a chynorthwyo gwelliannau ar gyfer y dyfodol.

A key aspect that we must consider in the idea of a metro system is the size and scope of the project and also how it will interconnect with inter-regional and international transport. Cardiff is the focus of the Valleys lines services as they operate currently. It is right that our capital should be the biggest transport hub in the region. However, looking at south Wales as a whole, we cannot afford to freeze out Newport and Swansea. These cities are also economic hubs for their own regions and, if we plan this well, the metro system could support and help them to grow and to develop also.

Agwedd allweddol y mae’n rhaid i ni ei ystyried fel rhan o’r syniad o system metro yw maint a chwmpas y prosiect a hefyd sut y bydd yn rhyng-gysylltu â thrafnidiaeth ryngranbarthol a rhyngwladol. Caerdydd yw ffocws gwasanaethau rheilffordd y Cymoedd fel y maent yn gweithredu ar hyn o bryd. Mae’n iawn mai ein prifddinas yw canolbwynt trafnidiaeth mwyaf y rhanbarth. Fodd bynnag, o edrych ar dde Cymru yn ei gyfanrwydd, ni allwn fforddio allgau Casnewydd ac Abertawe. Mae’r dinasoedd hyn hefyd yn ganolfannau economaidd i’w rhanbarthau eu hunain ac, os ydym yn cynllunio hyn yn fedrus, gallai’r system metro eu cefnogi a’u helpu i dyfu a datblygu hefyd.

We need to look not only, as Mick was saying, at the north-south links, but at the ways in which we can bring people together across the traditional and geographical boundaries that the Valleys have presented us with. It is also important to look at the way in which these local services link up to our national rail services. However, that will bring us some specific challenges. A major problem that we have with our rail infrastructure at the moment is that we have inherited a number of pinch points, not least of which is Cardiff Central railway station itself. It limits capacity and prevents us from offering more frequent services. Signalling and track improvements can have some impact on that but I think that we need to be more radical. I am aware that major signalling works are planned for Cardiff Central, but even those will not allow us to push a big increase in train numbers through what is a lynchpin station and the interconnection between our Valleys lines and national services.

Mae angen i ni edrych nid yn unig, fel y dywedodd Mick, ar y cysylltiadau rhwng y gogledd a’r de, ond ar y ffyrdd y gallwn ddod â phobl at ei gilydd ar draws y ffiniau traddodiadol a daearyddol yn y Cymoedd. Mae hefyd yn bwysig edrych ar y modd y mae’r gwasanaethau lleol hyn yn cysylltu â’n gwasanaethau rheilffordd cenedlaethol. Fodd bynnag, daw hynny â rhai heriau penodol i ni. Problem fawr sydd gennym gyda’n seilwaith rheilffyrdd ar hyn o bryd yw ein bod wedi etifeddu nifer o fannau cyfyng. Nid y lleiaf o’r rhain yw gorsaf drenau Caerdydd Canolog ei hun. Mae’n cyfyngu capasiti ac yn ein hatal rhag cynnig gwasanaethau amlach. Gall signalau a gwelliannau i’r traciau gael rhywfaint o effaith ar hynny, ond credaf fod angen i ni fod yn fwy radical. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol bod cynlluniau am waith signalau mawr ar gyfer Canol Caerdydd, ond ni fydd hyd yn oed y rheini yn ein galluogi i wthio cynnydd mawr yn nifer y trenau sy’n mynd drwy orsaf hanfodol a’r rhyng-gysylltiad rhwng rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd a’n gwasanaethau cenedlaethol.

We will need to consider the way in which we use our rail lines and to look for additional ways of travelling. We need to think about such things as whether we should separate the inner city Cardiff services from those serving the outlying areas. If we do, we could potentially improve journey times for those coming in from outlying places such as Merthyr and Maesteg, and make sure that commuters living in the inner city areas can get on the trains. As those of you who use them will know, that can often be a problem at busy times.

Bydd angen i ni ystyried y ffordd yr ydym yn defnyddio ein rheilffyrdd a chwilio am ffyrdd ychwanegol o deithio. Mae angen i ni feddwl tybed a ddylem wahanu’r gwasanaethau yng nghanol dinas Caerdydd oddi wrth y rhai sy’n gwasanaethu’r ardaloedd pellennig. O wneud hynny, gallem o bosibl wella’r amseroedd teithio ar gyfer pobl sy’n dod i mewn o leoedd pellennig fel Merthyr a Maesteg, a sicrhau y gall cymudwyr sy’n byw yng nghanol y ddinas fynd ar y trenau. Fel bydd y rhai ohonoch sy’n eu defnyddio yn gwybod, yn aml gall hynny fod yn broblem ar adegau prysur.

Potentially, we will also need to consider trams and light rail to serve inner city routes, particularly as Cardiff Central station is such a problem. Using a tram system to support a metro system could help us to avoid that becoming a barrier to progress. If we are going to be radical, we need to think about what impact that will have on the idea of an incrementally progressed metro system. We have to think very carefully about what systems will be set up, in what order and in what way.

O bosibl, bydd angen i ni hefyd ystyried tramiau a rheilffyrdd ysgafn i wasanaethu llwybrau canol dinas, yn enwedig gan fod gorsaf Caerdydd Canolog yn gymaint o broblem. Gallai defnyddio system dramiau i gefnogi system metro ein helpu i osgoi bod hynny’n rhwystro cynnydd. Os ydym yn mynd i fod yn radical, mae angen i ni feddwl am yr effaith a gaiff hynny ar y syniad o system metro sydd yn symud ymlaen yn raddol. Mae’n rhaid i ni feddwl yn ofalus iawn am ba systemau a fydd yn cael eu sefydlu, ym mha drefn ac ym mha ffordd.

The exciting thing about this is that there are many ideas, many opportunities and many opinions on how we could progress, but there seems to be a good consensus that we should and need to progress. We now need to capture some of those ideas and bring together a viable plan. I hope that the Minister will be able to discuss what his approach to that might be during the debate today.

Y peth cyffrous am hyn yw bod amryw syniad, amryw gyfle ac amryw farn ar sut y gallem symud ymlaen, ond ymddengys fod consensws da y dylem a bod angen i ni symud ymlaen. Yn awr mae angen i ni fanteisio ar rai o’r syniadau hynny a dwyn cynllun hyfyw ynghyd. Yr wyf yn gobeithio y bydd y Gweinidog yn gallu trafod beth allai ei ymagwedd fod tuag at hynny yn ystod y ddadl heddiw.

We must work together to gain a consensus so that, when we are pushing forward for funding, we are united and strong. We also need to work fast, because we need to grab this opportunity, while electrification work is being undertaken, or it might be lost for another generation.

Rhaid i ni gydweithio i sicrhau consensws fel, pan ydym yn gwthio ymlaen ar gyfer ariannu, ein bod yn unedig ac yn gryf. Mae angen hefyd i ni weithio’n gyflym, oherwydd mae angen i fachu ar y cyfle hwn, tra bod y gwaith trydaneiddio yn cael ei wneud, neu gallai gael ei golli am genhedlaeth arall.

Vaughan Gething: Members will not be surprised to hear me speak in favour of this motion, given the amount of times that I have raised the issue inside and outside of the Chamber. From the outset, it is important for us all to recognise, as we have done, that the south Wales metro concept is for an integrated transport system that will benefit the whole of the south Wales region, and not a project simply to advance the interests of Cardiff.

Vaughan Gething: Ni fydd Aelodau’n synnu fy nghlywed yn siarad o blaid y cynnig hwn, o ystyried faint o weithiau yr wyf wedi codi’r mater y tu mewn a’r tu allan i’r Siambr. O’r cychwyn cyntaf, mae’n bwysig i bob un ohonom gydnabod, fel y gwnaethom, bod y cysyniad o fetro de Cymru yn un ar gyfer system drafnidiaeth integredig a fydd o fudd i’r ranbarth de Cymru i gyd, ac nid yw’n brosiect er mwyn hyrwyddo buddiannau Caerdydd yn unig.

Some people have suggested that the prime purpose of a metro is to move people in and out of the central business district of Cardiff. Making travel to and from Cardiff easier is a key part of the proposal, but new routes are proposed across the Heads of the Valleys, from Bridgend to Pontypool via Llantrisant and across the whole of the South Wales Valleys area. The hub in Cardiff Central station is a key part of the proposal, but the widest and most obvious benefit would be the extended travel opportunities for Valleys communities across the south Wales area. We should remember that the area in question contains about half of the population of Wales.

Mae rhai pobl wedi awgrymu mai prif ddiben metro yw symud pobl i mewn ac allan o ardal fusnes canol Caerdydd. Mae gwneud teithio i ac o Gaerdydd yn haws yn rhan allweddol o’r cynnig, ond cynigir llwybrau newydd ar draws Blaenau’r Cymoedd, o Benybont i Bont-y-pŵl trwy Lantrisant ac ar draws ardal Cymoedd de Cymru i gyd. Mae’r canolbwynt yng ngorsaf Caerdydd Canolog yn rhan allweddol o’r cynnig, ond byddai’r budd ehangaf ac amlycaf yn y cyfleoedd teithio estynedig i gymunedau’r Cymoedd ar draws ardal de Cymru. Dylem gofio bod yr ardal dan sylw yn cynnwys tua hanner poblogaeth Cymru.

Every day, about 80,000 people commute into Cardiff, about 28,000 people commute into Swansea and 27,000 people commute into Newport. With commuter demand set to rise by almost 50 per cent by 2020, the only form of mass transit able to move that number of people efficiently is rail. We simply cannot afford to build a large road network to cope with that increase in demand, never mind the environmental cost. 

Bob dydd, mae tua 80,000 o bobl yn cymudo i Gaerdydd, tua 28,000 o bobl yn cymudo i Abertawe a 27,000 o bobl yn cymudo i Gasnewydd. Gyda galw cymudwyr yn codi bron i 50 y cant erbyn 2020, yr unig fath o drafnidiaeth dorfol sydd yn gallu symud y nifer hwnnw o bobl yn effeithlon yw rheilffyrdd. Ni allwn fforddio adeiladu rhwydwaith ffyrdd mawr i ymdopi â’r cynnydd hwnnw yn y galw, heb sôn am y gost amgylcheddol.

A south Wales metro is a vital component in securing a prosperous economic future for Wales. It should make the region a more competitive place in which to invest and do business, as well as promoting the region as a tourist destination. The Cardiff business partnership report makes a cogent case for improving our regional transport infrastructure. It also states the inhibiting impact of inadequate transport infrastructure on growth. While approximately 40 per cent of the British rail network is electrified, none of that track is in Wales. With leading city regions in the UK, such as Manchester and Leeds, already having inter-urban infrastructure and looking to increase their connectivity to London and Heathrow, the risks of doing nothing are obvious. It is essential that Wales continues to remain an attractive place in which to do business, and to get businesses in and out of.

Mae metro de Cymru yn elfen hanfodol i sicrhau dyfodol economaidd llewyrchus i Gymru. Dylai wneud y rhanbarth yn lle mwy cystadleuol i fuddsoddi a gwneud busnes ynddi, yn ogystal â hyrwyddo’r rhanbarth fel cyrchfan i dwristiaid. Mae adroddiad partneriaeth busnes Caerdydd yn cyflwyno achos argyhoeddiadol ar gyfer gwella ein seilwaith trafnidiaeth rhanbarthol. Mae hefyd yn nodi effaith ataliol y seilwaith trafnidiaeth annigonol ar dwf. Er bod tua 40 y cant o rwydwaith rheilffyrdd Prydain wedi’i drydaneiddio, nid oes dim o’r trac hwnnw yng Nghymru. Gyda dinas-ranbarthau blaenllaw yn y DU, fel Manceinion a Leeds, eisoes â seilwaith rhyngdrefol ac yn amcanu cynyddu eu cysylltedd i Lundain a Heathrow, mae risgiau gwneud dim yn amlwg. Mae’n hanfodol bod Cymru yn dal ati i barhau i fod yn lle deniadol i wneud busnes, ac i gael busnesau i mewn ac allan ohoni.

As a large employer, British Gas has already seen a clear relationship between recruitment and retention on the one hand and transport links on the other. It is not a mistake or a coincidence that it relocated its major call centre within the city centre. An edge-of-Cardiff location would have driven away large numbers of its fairly young workforce. Cost and convenience are two undeniably important factors. Other large employers, such as British Telecom, with significant bases in Newport, Cardiff and Swansea, recognise that same relationship. It also reinforces the cost of doing nothing.

Fel cyflogwr mawr, mae Nwy Prydain eisoes wedi gweld perthynas glir rhwng recriwtio a chadw staff ar y naill law a chysylltiadau trafnidiaeth ar y llall. Nid yw’n gamgymeriad neu yn gyd-ddigwyddiad ei fod wedi adleoli ei ganolfan alwadau mawr i ganol y ddinas. Byddai lleoliad ar gyrion Caerdydd wedi gyrru ymaith nifer fawr o’i weithlu gweddol ifanc. Mae cost a chyfleustra yn ddau ffactor na allwch wadu eu pwysigrwydd. Mae cyflogwyr mawr eraill, fel British Telecom, sydd â chanolfannau sylweddol yng Nghasnewydd, Caerdydd ac Abertawe, yn cydnabod yr un berthynas.  Mae hefyd yn atgyfnerthu’r gost o wneud dim.

2.00 p.m.

As Nick Ramsay said, between 1998 and 2008, Cardiff contributed around 40 per cent of the total private sector employment growth in Wales. The main challenge for us is how to sustain and extend the benefits of that private sector growth across the region, and across Wales. Improvements in the rail network should enable businesses to increase their skills base and the number of available employees. It should also give greater and fairer access to job opportunities across the region, and enable people to have job opportunities without having to move home. That should be a positive benefit.

Fel y dywedodd Nick Ramsay, rhwng 1998 a 2008, cyfrannodd Caerdydd tua 40 y cant o gyfanswm y twf cyflogaeth yn y sector preifat yng Nghymru. Y brif her i ni yw sut i gynnal ac ymestyn manteision y twf yn y sector preifat ar draws y rhanbarth, ac ar draws Cymru. Dylai gwelliannau yn y rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd alluogi busnesau i gynyddu eu sylfaen sgiliau a nifer y gweithwyr sydd ar gael. Dylai hefyd roi mynediad gwell a thecach at gyfleoedd am swyddi ar draws y rhanbarth, a galluogi pobl i gael cyfleoedd gwaith heb orfod symud cartref. Dylai hynny fod o fudd cadarnhaol.

The east of my constituency is currently one of those areas has no rail network linking it to the city centre, to Newport, or the Valleys. The bus service to the city centre takes 45 minutes, and many people in east Cardiff do not have access to a private car. A metro would clearly play an important role, not only in economic mobility, but also in helping to tackle social exclusion.

Mae ochr ddwyreiniol fy etholaeth i ar hyn o bryd yn un o’r ardaloedd hynny nad oes ganddi rwydwaith rheilffordd i’w cysylltu â chanol y ddinas, i Gasnewydd, neu’r Cymoedd. Mae’r gwasanaeth bws i ganol y ddinas yn cymryd 45 munud, ac nid oes gan lawer o bobl yn nwyrain Caerdydd fynediad at gar preifat. Byddai metro yn chwarae rhan bwysig, nid yn unig o ran symudedd economaidd, ond hefyd o ran helpu i fynd i’r afael ag allgau cymdeithasol.

The electrification of the Valleys lines is an essential prerequisite for the metro. It is at the core of any proposals. I welcome the broad support given by the Welsh Government to this project. As has been said by other speakers, it is essential that we all get behind the case for electrification, and the business case that the Welsh Government will present to the Department for Transport. We should not be too shy to point out that Crossrail is a transport infrastructure project funded by UK taxpayers for the City of London.

Mae trydaneiddio rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd yn hanfodol ar gyfer y metro. Mae wrth wraidd unrhyw gynigion. Yr wyf yn croesawu’r gefnogaeth eang a roddir gan Lywodraeth Cymru i’r prosiect hwn. Fel y dywedwyd gan siaradwyr eraill, mae’n hanfodol ein bod ni i gyd yn cefnogi’r achos dros drydaneiddio, a’r achos busnes y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn cyflwyno i’r Adran Drafnidiaeth. Ni ddylem fod yn rhy swil i nodi bod Crossrail yn brosiect seilwaith trafnidiaeth a ariennir gan drethdalwyr y DU ar gyfer Dinas Llundain.

The window of opportunity exists now. A decision on electrification is imminent. Network Rail will invest £220 million in the Valleys and Cardiff network by 2015, and we know that we have to replace unsuitable or old rolling stock by 2020. This debate is not only about infrastructure, but people and places. It is a once in a generation opportunity that we should all get behind and seize for the whole of Wales.

Mae yna gyfle i weithredu yn awr. Mae penderfyniad ar drydanu ar fin cael ei wneud. Bydd Network Rail yn buddsoddi £220 miliwn yn rhwydwaith y Cymoedd a Chaerdydd erbyn 2015, ac yr ydym yn gwybod bod yn rhaid amnewid cerbydau anaddas neu hen erbyn 2020. Nid yw’r ddadl hon am seilwaith yn unig, ond pobl a lleoedd. Mae’n gyfle unwaith mewn cenhedlaeth y dylem i gyd ei gefnogi ar gyfer Cymru gyfan.

The Minister for Local Government and Communities (Carl Sargeant): I am grateful to Members for tabling this interesting and timely debate, and for the opportunity to respond under these new National Assembly procedures. I am also grateful to Members for expressing their support when tabling this motion. I ask Members across the Chamber to confirm their support for the motion, which I will also be giving. I urge Members to convey their support for this scheme to their colleagues in Westminster, and to encourage them to support the case for investment in the electrification of the Great Western main line to Swansea and the whole of the Valleys lines network.

Y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau (Carl Sargeant): Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Aelodau am gyflwyno’r ddadl ddiddorol ac amserol hon, ac am y cyfle i ymateb o dan weithdrefnau newydd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Yr wyf hefyd yn ddiolchgar i’r Aelodau am fynegi eu cefnogaeth wrth gyflwyno’r cynnig hwn. Gofynnaf i Aelodau ar draws y Siambr i gadarnhau eu bod yn cefnogi’r cynnig, fel y byddaf i hefyd yn ei wneud. Anogaf Aelodau i gyfleu eu cefnogaeth i’r cynllun hwn i’w cydweithwyr yn San Steffan, a’u hannog i gefnogi’r achos dros fuddsoddi er mwyn trydaneiddio’r prif lein Great Western i Abertawe a rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd yn ei gyfanrwydd.

The Welsh Government is committed to developing an integrated transport system to deliver economic growth and help end poverty, which we have set out in our programme for government. People need to be able to travel around the system easily to access employment, facilities and services in order to sustain our communities. As many have said today, we need to make sustainable travel the first choice for people. For that to happen, we need to have a range of choices and easy and effective interchanges between modes of transport such as rail and long-distance and local bus services. I share my colleague’s vision of an integrated transport metro system that connects businesses and employment centres with our regeneration areas, serving around two thirds of the population. Under this vision, regional centres would be linked to towns and communities by an integrated transport system. That system would need frequent service intervals and a good journey time between Cardiff and Newport city centres.

Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ymrwymo i ddatblygu system drafnidiaeth integredig i gyflawni twf economaidd a helpu i roi terfyn ar dlodi, yr ydym wedi nodi yn ein rhaglen lywodraethu. Mae angen i bobl allu teithio o amgylch y system yn hawdd i gael mynediad at gyflogaeth, cyfleusterau a gwasanaethau er mwyn cynnal ein cymunedau. Fel y mae llawer wedi sôn heddiw, mae angen inni sicrhau mai teithio cynaliadwy yw’r dewis cyntaf i bobl. Er mwyn i hynny ddigwydd, mae angen i ni gael ystod o ddewisiadau a chyfnewidfeydd hawdd ac effeithiol rhwng dulliau trafnidiaeth megis y rheilffyrdd a gwasanaethau bws lleol a phellter hir. Yr wyf yn rhannu gweledigaeth fy nghydweithiwr o ran cael system metro drafnidiaeth integredig sy’n cysylltu busnesau a chanolfannau cyflogaeth gyda’n hardaloedd adfywio, yn gwasanaethu tua dwy ran o dair o’r boblogaeth. O dan y weledigaeth hon, byddai canolfannau rhanbarthol yn gysylltiedig â threfi a chymunedau trwy system drafnidiaeth integredig. Byddai angen gwasanaeth cyson ac amser teithio da rhwng canol dinasoedd Caerdydd a Chasnewydd fel rhan o’r system honno.

I am keen to put in place an incremental building block for that and the electrification of the Valleys lines network in the south-east is a prerequisite step. That vision is already ambitious, but could be expanded further. Mark Barry’s scheme, which many Members have supported, is only one part of the metro concept for Wales. My vision is of a south Wales metro region that includes and extends beyond Newport, Cardiff, Swansea and the surrounding areas, providing a 45-minute journey time to work. Swansea is our second largest city and has always had good links with east and west Wales, and also supports communities where employment and accessibility are important. An ambitious vision would like to see this thinking spreading across all the whole region of Wales.

Yr wyf yn awyddus i sefydlu bloc adeiladu cynyddol ar gyfer hynny ac mae trydaneiddio rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd yn y de-ddwyrain yn gam hanfodol. Mae’r weledigaeth honno eisoes yn uchelgeisiol, ond gellid ei ehangu ymhellach. Un rhan yn unig o’r cysyniad metro ar gyfer Cymru yw cynllun Mark Barry, y mae llawer o Aelodau wedi’i gefnogi. Fy ngweledigaeth i yw rhanbarth metro de Cymru sy’n cynnwys ac yn ymestyn y tu hwnt i Gasnewydd, Caerdydd, Abertawe a’r ardaloedd cyfagos, gan roi amser teithio o 45 munud i’r gwaith. Abertawe yw ein hail ddinas o ran maint, gyda chysylltiadau da i ddwyrain a gorllewin Cymru eisoes, ac mae hefyd yn cefnogi cymunedau lle mae cyflogaeth a hygyrchedd yn bwysig. Byddai weledigaeth uchelgeisiol am weld y meddylfryd hwn yn lledaenu ar draws holl ranbarth Cymru gyfan.

Mohammad Asghar: Thank you very much for giving way, Minister. The previous Government mentioned that, before the Ryder Cup, Newport would have a link to the Valleys lines. It was constantly promised, but has never been fulfilled. We have learned a lesson from the rail service that is there, which had its millionth passenger in a much shorter time than expected and made a lot of profit. Will you please reconsider prioritising Newport on the list, because it will revive the economy of that great city?

Mohammad Asghar: Diolch yn fawr iawn am ildio, Weinidog. Soniodd y Llywodraeth flaenorol y byddai Casnewydd, cyn Cwpan Ryder, yn cysylltu â rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd. Addawyd hynny’n gyson, ond nid yw hynny wedi cael ei gyflawni. Yr ydym wedi dysgu gwers gan y gwasanaeth rheilffyrdd sydd yno, a oedd wedi cludo ei filiynfed teithiwr mewn cyfnod llawer byrrach na’r disgwyl ac yn gwneud llawer o elw. A wnewch chi os gwelwch yn dda ailystyried blaenoriaethu Casnewydd ar y rhestr, oherwydd bydd yn adfywio economi'r ddinas fawr honno?

Carl Sargeant: I am sure that the Member recognises the statement that I have just made. I have a vision of the metro system that will go beyond just the Cardiff area. It has to include Swansea and Newport, and there is the whole issue of supporting the Valleys services. This is a metro service for south Wales, and I note the Member’s comments.

Carl Sargeant: Yr wyf yn siŵr bod yr Aelod yn cydnabod y datganiad yr wyf newydd ei wneud. Mae gen i weledigaeth o system metro fydd yn mynd y tu hwnt i ardal Caerdydd. Mae’n rhaid iddo gynnwys Abertawe a Chasnewydd, ac mae hefyd y mater o gefnogi gwasanaethau’r Cymoedd. Mae hwn yn wasanaeth metro ar gyfer de Cymru, a nodaf sylwadau’r Aelod.

Integrated rail services can be a key support for economic development. Three of the five enterprise zones being created will be linked by the Valleys lines network—Cardiff business district, St Athan and Ebbw Vale—and that will bring a whole host of new opportunities. At the core of my vision is the current rail network. Rail infrastructure investment is non-devolved, and UK Government priorities do not always fit Welsh Government priorities. Perhaps this is demonstrated by the Chancellor’s autumn statement, where the additional £1 billion for rail investment was primarily in England with nothing specifically for the railway in Wales. However, that does not mean that we should not continue with our fight to secure funding for this vision. I do not see that as an obstacle that will get in the way; I want to be able to modernise our railways and our services.

Gall gwasanaethau rheilffordd integredig fod yn gymorth allweddol ar gyfer datblygu economaidd. Bydd tri o’r pum ardal fenter sy’n cael eu creu yn cael eu cysylltu gan rwydwaith rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd—ardal fusnes Caerdydd, Sain Tathan a Glyn Ebwy—a bydd hynny’n dod â llu o gyfleoedd newydd. Wrth wraidd fy ngweledigaeth yw’r rhwydwaith rheilffyrdd presennol. Nid yw buddsoddi mewn seilwaith rheilffyrdd wedi ei ddatganoli, ac nid yw blaenoriaethau Llywodraeth y DU bob amser yn cyd-fynd â blaenoriaethau Llywodraeth Cymru. Efallai fod hyn yn amlwg o ddatganiad yr hydref gan y Canghellor, lle cyhoeddwyd £1 biliwn ychwanegol ar gyfer buddsoddi yn y rheilffyrdd yn bennaf yn Lloegr, gyda dim byd yn benodol ar gyfer y rheilffordd yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny’n golygu na ddylem barhau â’n brwydr i sicrhau cyllid ar gyfer y weledigaeth hon. Nid wyf yn gweld hynny fel rhwystr; hoffwn fedru moderneiddio ein rheilffyrdd a’n gwasanaethau.

My officials have been leading on the development of an outline business case, which Vaughan Gething mentioned earlier, in terms of electrification, which, again, would be a building block for the south Wales regional metro. We will shortly submit the business case to the Department for Transport. We will have a period of sensitive discussions ahead of that; therefore, it is difficult for me to share that case with you today. However, I can say that we have a strong case for electrification to Swansea and the wider Valleys network, and I hope that colleagues will be able to support that when it is public. Over the coming months, we shall continue to develop and refine that strong business case to a conclusion with the Department for Transport in order to secure funding for a control period, April 2014.

Mae fy swyddogion wedi bod yn arwain ar y gwaith o ddatblygu achos busnes amlinellol, a grybwyllwyd gan Vaughan Gething yn gynharach, o ran trydaneiddio, sydd, unwaith eto, yn floc adeiladu ar gyfer metro rhanbarthol de Cymru. Byddwn yn cyflwyno’r achos busnes cyn bo hir i’r Adran Drafnidiaeth. Byddwn yn cael cyfnod o drafodaethau sensitif cyn hynny; felly, mae’n anodd i mi rannu’r achos hwnnw gyda chi heddiw. Fodd bynnag, gallaf ddweud bod gennym achos cryf dros drydaneiddio i Abertawe a rhwydwaith ehangach y Cymoedd, ac yr wyf yn gobeithio y bydd cydweithwyr yn gallu cefnogi hynny pan fydd yn gyhoeddus. Dros y misoedd nesaf, byddwn yn parhau i ddatblygu a mireinio'r achos busnes cryf hwnnw gyda’r Adran Drafnidiaeth er mwyn sicrhau arian ar gyfer cyfnod rheoli, fis Ebrill 2014.

There has been much talk about an integrated transport service for south Wales. It is my vision to achieve transfers in not just south Wales, but the whole of Wales. How we have looked at taking this forward will be important to gaining cross-party support in the Chamber, and I am pleased that we have that support today. As a fundamental building block for the integrated transport system, once we know that we will be successful in terms of the electrification of the main line and the Valleys lines, that will set us on a journey towards new transfer opportunities in an integrated system. We could commission an electric train fleet, making the cost of travel and services much cheaper for Wales. I am sure that colleagues in the Chamber share that vision, as I have heard clearly today. We need to be able to demonstrate that to the UK Government in order to secure funding for a better service for Wales. I commend the motion to Members and hope that you will support it today.

Bu llawer o sôn am wasanaeth trafnidiaeth integredig ar gyfer de Cymru. Fy ngweledigaeth yw sicrhau trosglwyddiadau nid yn unig yn ne Cymru, ond Cymru gyfan. Bydd sut yr ydym wedi edrych ar fwrw ymlaen â hyn yn bwysig o ran sicrhau cefnogaeth drawsbleidiol yn y Siambr, ac yr wyf yn falch bod gennym y gefnogaeth honno heddiw. Fel bloc adeiladu sylfaenol ar gyfer y system drafnidiaeth integredig, unwaith y byddwn yn gwybod y byddwn yn llwyddiannus o ran trydaneiddio prif linell a rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd, byddwn yn dechrau ar y daith tuag at gyfleoedd trosglwyddo newydd o fewn system integredig. Gallem gomisiynu fflyd o drenau trydan, gan leihau’r gost o deithio a gwasanaethau ar gyfer Cymru. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod cydweithwyr yn y Siambr yn rhannu’r weledigaeth honno, fel yr wyf wedi ei glywed yn glir heddiw. Mae angen i ni allu dangos hynny i Lywodraeth y DU er mwyn sicrhau cyllid ar gyfer gwasanaeth gwell i Gymru. Cymeradwyaf y cynnig i’r Aelodau a gobeithiaf y byddwch yn ei gefnogi heddiw.

Byron Davies: I am delighted to be able to close this debate. The consensus around the Chamber emphasises the will, the urgency and the importance of developing a metro system in south Wales. We all see the great potential for economic regeneration here, spreading the challenges of growth and connecting our communities through a sustainable and safe public transport network, which this metro system could create for some two thirds of our population in Wales.

Byron Davies: Yr wyf yn falch iawn o allu cloi’r ddadl hon. Mae’r consensws o gwmpas y Siambr yn pwysleisio'r ewyllys, y brys a phwysigrwydd datblygu system metro yn ne Cymru. Yr ydym i gyd yn gweld y potensial mawr ar gyfer adfywio economaidd yma, gan ledaenu heriau twf a chysylltu ein cymunedau drwy rwydwaith trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus gynaliadwy a diogel, y gall y system metro ei greu ar gyfer rhyw dwy ran o dair o’n poblogaeth yng Nghymru.

Although many of the benefits, potential pitfalls and details have been drawn out in the debate, I would like to focus my closing remarks on a few particular contributions and tease out some additional detail. Much of what has been said by most of the speakers has been a repetition of the need and the justification for it, but I would like to pick up a few of the points that were raised. I thank and pay tribute to Mick Antoniw for opening this debate, which is an extremely welcome and timely one. His remarks emphasise the passion that we all feel for this project, and I also want to pay tribute to the Cardiff business partnership for its unstinting support for this project.

Er bod llawer o’r manteision, peryglon posibl a manylion wedi cael eu trafod yn y ddadl, hoffwn ganolbwyntio fy sylwadau wrth gloi ar ychydig o gyfraniadau penodol a datrys rhai manylion ychwanegol. Mae llawer o’r hyn sydd wedi’i ddweud gan y rhan fwyaf o’r siaradwyr wedi ailadrodd yr angen a’r cyfiawnhad dros ei gael, ond hoffwn godi rhai o’r pwyntiau a godwyd. Yr wyf yn diolch ac yn talu teyrnged i Mick Antoniw am agor y ddadl hon, sydd yn un i’w groesawu ac yn un hynod amserol. Mae ei sylwadau yn tanlinellu'r angerdd yr ydym i gyd yn teimlo ar gyfer y prosiect hwn, ac yr wyf hefyd am dalu teyrnged i’r bartneriaeth busnes yng Nghaerdydd am ei gefnogaeth barhaol ar gyfer y prosiect hwn.

Mick Antoniw talked about a vision, and that is what this is at the moment, but it can become a reality. He also talked about European structural funding, but it does need leadership from the Welsh Government for that to happen. Opening up the Valleys and resolving the difficulties in the A470 corridor are absolutely the challenge. Two thirds of the population of Wales are based there and we need to transport them to our capital city. We need to involve several agencies in this, including Sustrans, and we now have the devolved unit Network Rail Wales, under the leadership of Mark Langman. I think that that will be essential in helping us to develop this. Imagine the InterCity 125 running from London to Pontypridd—I am sure that the people of Pontypridd would be delighted. Who knows? It has happened in Manchester. I was there recently, and it really is fantastic to travel on their metro system; it is absolutely brilliant.

Soniodd Mick Antoniw am weledigaeth, a dyna beth yw hwn ar hyn o bryd, ond gall ddod yn realiti. Soniodd hefyd am arian strwythurol Ewropeaidd, ond mae angen arweinyddiaeth gan Lywodraeth Cymru er mwyn i hynny ddigwydd. Yn wir, yr her yw agor i fyny'r Cymoedd a datrys yr anawsterau o ran coridor yr A470. Mae dwy ran o dair o boblogaeth Cymru wedi eu lleoli yno ac mae angen i ni eu cludo i’n prifddinas. Mae angen i ni gynnwys sawl asiantaeth yn hyn, gan gynnwys Sustrans, a bellach mae gennym uned ddatganoledig Network Rail Cymru, o dan arweiniad Mark Langman. Credaf y bydd hynny’n hanfodol o ran ein helpu i ddatblygu hyn. Dychmygwch yr InterCity 125 yn rhedeg o Lundain i Bontypridd—yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai pobl Pontypridd wrth eu bodd. Pwy a ŵyr? Mae wedi digwydd ym Manceinion. Roeddwn i yno yn ddiweddar, ac mae’n wirioneddol wych i deithio ar eu system metro; mae’n hollol wych.

Nick Ramsay talked about this taking a long time and that he hoped to see it eventually; I certainly hope to see it. I do not know if I will still be a Member here, but I certainly hope to live to see it. It is a frequent point of discussion now, which is good news, so it must happen, and we must make it happen as soon as possible.

Soniodd Nick Ramsay y bydd hyn yn cymryd amser hir a’i fod yn gobeithio ei weld yn y pen draw; yr wyf yn sicr yn gobeithio ei weld. Nid wyf yn gwybod os byddaf yn dal i fod yn Aelod yma, ond yr wyf yn sicr yn gobeithio byw i’w weld. Mae’n destun trafod yn aml yn awr, sy’n newyddion da, felly mae’n rhaid iddo ddigwydd, ac mae’n rhaid i ni wneud iddo ddigwydd cyn gynted ag y bo modd.

Jocelyn Davies talked about three considerations for priority. She talked about Wales falling behind the other UK countries, and the need to get 1.2 million people out of cars and onto rail, with a redistribution of opportunities and jobs. That is a very important point. A vibrant economy depends on an efficient transport system. Christine Chapman said that politics is about priorities that need to be translated into ambitions. Absolutely; I could not agree more. This is about connections to employment opportunities.

Soniodd Jocelyn Davies am dair beth sydd angen eu hystyried fel man cychwyn. Soniodd am Gymru yn disgyn y tu ôl i wledydd eraill y DU, a’r angen i gael 1.2 miliwn o bobl allan o’u ceir ac ar y rheilffyrdd, yn ogystal ag ailddosbarthu cyfleoedd a swyddi. Mae hwnnw’n bwynt pwysig iawn. Mae economi fywiog yn dibynnu ar system drafnidiaeth effeithlon. Dywedodd Christine Chapman bod gwleidyddiaeth yn ymwneud â blaenoriaethau y mae angen eu troi’n uchelgeisiau. Yn hollol; ni allwn gytuno mwy. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â chysylltiadau i gyfleoedd cyflogaeth.

Tourism in the Valleys is on the up; there is no doubt about that. In my shadow portfolio capacity I have visited some of the projects up there, and the one thing that is missing is an integrated transport system to bring people to the Valleys and transport people around the Valleys. I will pick up on what Eluned Parrott said about the south Wales Valleys being a powerhouse—absolutely. The barrier at the moment is not having an integrated transport system. It is about Newport, Swansea and the area west of Swansea. We have to bear in mind that there are people there who want to travel to the capital. I always mention the young people who want the opportunity to come to Cardiff, so it has to go beyond Swansea. Obviously, we have to start to get this system in place in and around Cardiff.

Mae twristiaeth yn y Cymoedd yn cynyddu; nid oes amheuaeth am hynny. Yn rhinwedd fy mhortffolio cysgodol, yr wyf wedi ymweld â rhai o’r prosiectau i fyny yno, a’r un peth sydd ar goll yw system drafnidiaeth integredig i ddod â phobl i’r Cymoedd a chludo pobl o amgylch y Cymoedd. Byddaf yn sylwi ar yr hyn a ddywedodd Eluned Parrott, mai pwerdy yw Cymoedd de Cymru—heb os. Y rhwystr ar hyn o bryd yw’r ffaith nad oes system drafnidiaeth integredig. Mae’n ymwneud â Chasnewydd, Abertawe a’r ardal i’r gorllewin o Abertawe. Mae’n rhaid i ni gofio fod yna bobl yna sydd am deithio i’r brifddinas. Yr wyf bob amser yn sôn am y bobl ifanc sydd am gael y cyfle i ddod i Gaerdydd, felly mae’n rhaid iddo fynd y tu hwnt i Abertawe. Yn amlwg, mae’n rhaid i ni ddechrau cael y system hon ar waith yng Nghaerdydd a’r cyffiniau.

Vaughan Gething talked about the benefits for the whole region, not just Cardiff, and I re-emphasise that point. The Minister talks about support for the scheme and I am delighted to hear that. He can be assured that, on this side, we will certainly be making sure that Westminster, hopefully, will provide us with electrification all the way to Swansea. I am pleased that he supports the idea of an integrated metro transport system, and recognises that electrification of the Valleys lines is key to the success of a south Wales metro region. I am delighted that he includes Swansea in this, but, as pointed out by Mohammad Asghar, it is also about Newport. We look forward very much to the announcement of the business case for electrification, and I am pleased to hear that it is a strong business case.

Siaradodd Vaughan Gething am y manteision ar gyfer y rhanbarth cyfan, nid dim ond Caerdydd, ac yr wyf yn ail-bwysleisio’r pwynt hwnnw. Mae’r Gweinidog yn sôn am gefnogaeth ar gyfer y cynllun ac yr wyf wrth fy modd i glywed hynny. Gall fod yn sicr y byddwn ni, ar yr ochr hon, yn sicr yn gwneud yn siŵr bod San Steffan, rwy’n gobeithio, yn trydaneiddio’r holl ffordd i Abertawe. Yr wyf yn falch ei fod yn cefnogi’r syniad o system drafnidiaeth integredig metro, ac yn cydnabod bod trydaneiddio rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd yn allweddol i lwyddiant rhanbarth metro de Cymru. Yr wyf wrth fy modd ei fod yn cynnwys Abertawe yn hyn, ond, fel y nodwyd gan Mohammad Asghar, mae hefyd yn ymwneud â Chasnewydd. Yr ydym yn edrych ymlaen yn fawr at y cyhoeddiad am yr achos busnes ar gyfer trydaneiddio, ac yr wyf yn falch o glywed ei fod yn achos busnes cryf.

I will finish with some comments to bear in mind. There is a clear commitment from all parties in this Chamber to ensure the development of a metro system, so I want to touch on where we may go next. We clearly have a commitment from the Westminster Government for the electrification programme of the Great Western main line that will extend to Cardiff and, hopefully, as I said earlier, to Swansea in due course. I know that the Wales Office supports this aim and is pursuing it with some vigour.

Hoffwn orffen gyda rhai sylwadau i’w cadw mewn cof. Mae ymrwymiad clir gan bob plaid yn y Siambr hon i sicrhau datblygiad y system metro, felly yr wyf am grybwyll ble gallwn fynd nesaf. Yn amlwg mae gennym ymrwymiad gan Lywodraeth San Steffan ar gyfer y rhaglen i drydaneiddio prif lein y Great Western a fydd yn ymestyn i Gaerdydd a, gobeithio, fel y dywedais yn gynharach, i Abertawe yn y man. Gwn fod Swyddfa Cymru yn cefnogi’r nod hwn ac yn mynd ar ei drywydd gyda rhywfaint o egni.

2.15 p.m.

We now need the Welsh Government and Network Rail to produce the sound business case that the Minister spoke of for the electrification of the Valleys lines to present to the Department for Transport. I believe that that is eminently possible; I am sure that they will deliver. The business case needs to justify the electrification of the entire Valleys network, including routes to Ebbw Vale, as has already been said, Maesteg and the Vale of Glamorgan, and not just the Cardiff-Valley routes to Merthyr, Rhymney, Aberdare, Treherbert and Barry Island, as the then Secretary of State for Transport, Philip Hammond, suggested in his statements to the House of Commons in March of this year.

Bellach mae angen i Lywodraeth Cymru a Network Rail lunio’r achos busnes cadarn y soniodd y Gweinidog amdano o blaid trydaneiddio llinellau’r Cymoedd i’w gyflwyno i’r Adran Drafnidiaeth. Credaf fod hynny'n gwbl bosibl; yr wyf yn siŵr y byddant yn cyflawni. Mae angen i’r achos busnes gyfiawnhau trydaneiddio rhwydwaith gyfan y Cymoedd, gan gynnwys llwybrau i Lynebwy, fel y dywedwyd eisoes, Maesteg a Bro Morgannwg, ac nid yn unig llwybrau Caerdydd a’r Cymoedd i Ferthyr, Rhymni, Aberdâr, Treherbert ac Ynys y Barri, fel yr awgrymodd yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros drafnidiaeth ar y pryd, Philip Hammond, yn ei ddatganiadau i Dŷ’r Cyffredin ym mis Mawrth eleni.

I also emphasise the importance of including Cardiff Airport, which was brought up earlier. This is a first-class opportunity to include the airport in our integrated transport system and, as I have said before, goodness knows it needs it.

Pwysleisiaf hefyd bwysigrwydd cynnwys Maes Awyr Caerdydd, a grybwyllwyd yn gynharach. Mae hwn yn gyfle rhagorol i gynnwys y maes awyr yn ein system drafnidiaeth integredig ac, fel yr wyf wedi dweud eisoes, dyn ag ŵyr y mae ei angen arno.

Whatever the scope, the electrification of the Valleys lines will deliver immediate benefits. New and/or cascaded electric rolling stock are less costly to run and maintain, reducing operational costs by as much as 20 per cent. An electrified network would provide faster, higher capacity and more frequent services, thereby improving access across the region to employment opportunities in Cardiff. Electric rolling stock will also reduce carbon dioxide emissions, which is an important issue with the current inefficient and life-expired diesel fleet. The sense of urgency that I hope that this motion will create today will mean that this new network could be operating by 2018-19.

Beth bynnag yw’r cwmpas, bydd trydaneiddio rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd yn sicrhau manteision ar unwaith. Mae cerbydau trydan newydd a/neu rai wedi’u rhaeadru yn llai costus i’w rhedeg a’u cynnal gan leihau’r costau gweithredol gymaint ag 20 y cant. Byddai rhwydwaith wedi’i drydaneiddio yn darparu capasiti cyflym ac uwch a gwasanaethau amlach, gan wella mynediad ar draws y rhanbarth i gyfleoedd cyflogaeth yng Nghaerdydd. Bydd cerbydau trydan hefyd yn lleihau allyriadau carbon deuocsid, sydd yn fater pwysig gyda’r fflyd diesel presennol aneffeithlon yn dod i ben. Bydd yr ymdeimlad o frys yr wyf yn gobeithio y bydd y cynnig hwn heddiw yn ei greu yn golygu y gallai’r rhwydwaith newydd hwn weithredu erbyn 2018-19.

However, the development of this network is not the end. The electrification of the south-Wales network will produce a catalyst for a more ambitious regional metro that connects all of the major settlements in the region with a high-capacity, affordable, turn-up-and-go urban south-Wales metro. This is the vision, as was said by Mick Antoniw, and it is deliverable. We have a UK Government that is clearly committed to electrification and regenerating the Welsh economy. We have a clear consensus, in this National Assembly and within local authorities, and we need to work in partnership to deliver it. I commend this motion to you and, given the previous comments from Members across the Chamber, I would be saddened to see anything less than a unanimous vote.

Fodd bynnag, nid datblygiad y rhwydwaith hwn yw’r diwedd. Bydd trydaneiddio rhwydwaith de Cymru yn cynhyrchu catalydd ar gyfer metro rhanbarthol mwy uchelgeisiol sy’n cysylltu pob un o’r prif aneddiadau yn y rhanbarth gyda metro fforddiadwy, trefol â chapasiti uchel ar gyfer de Cymru, lle mae modd teithio heb drefnu ymlaen llaw. Mae hyn yn y weledigaeth, fel y dywedodd Mick Antoniw, ac mae modd ei gyflawni. Mae gennym Lywodraeth y DU sydd yn amlwg wedi ymrwymo i drydaneiddio ac adfywio economi Cymru. Mae gennym gonsensws clir, yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol hwn ac o fewn awdurdodau lleol, ac mae angen inni weithio mewn partneriaeth i gyflawni hynny. Cymeradwyaf y cynnig hwn i chi ac, o ystyried y sylwadau blaenorol gan Aelodau ar draws y Siambr, byddwn yn drist o weld unrhyw beth llai na phleidlais unfrydol.

The Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion. Are there any objections? I see that there are not. The motion is therefore agreed, in accordance with Standing Order No. 12.36.

Y Llywydd: Y cynnig yw cytuno ar y cynnig. A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? Gwelaf nad oes. Felly derbynnir y cynnig, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 12.36.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion agreed.

Cynnig NDM4875 William Graham

Motion NDM4875 William Graham

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i:

1. Calls on the Welsh Government to:

a) ad-drefnu polisi Addysg Uwch i gryfhau safonau addysgu a gwella canlyniadau graddedigion;

a) realign Higher Education policy to strengthen teaching standards and improve graduate outcomes;

b) sefydlu Sefydliadau Addysg Uwch Cymru fel canolfannau rhagoriaeth ar gyfer ôl-raddedigion ac ymchwil; a

b) establish Welsh Higher Education Institutions as centres for post graduate and research excellence; and

c) rhoi blaenoriaeth i gydweithio gwirfoddol yn hytrach na gorfodi Sefydliadau Addysg Uwch i uno.

c) prioritise voluntary collaboration in preference to forced mergers between Higher Education Institutions.

Angela Burns: I move the motion in the name of William Graham on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives.

Angela Burns: Cynigiaf y cynnig yn enw William Graham ar ran y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig.

Before I proceed with the thrust of our debate, I wish to stress that this motion is supported by Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats. If we had been able to, the opposition parties would have tabled a joint motion, but, unfortunately, time was against us, and given that all three opposition parties believe that the issue of the reorganisation of the higher education sector is of such paramount importance, we could not delay in raising this subject.

Cyn imi fynd ymlaen â byrdwn ein dadl, hoffwn bwysleisio bod y cynnig hwn yn cael ei gefnogi gan Blaid Cymru a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Pe baem wedi gallu, byddai’r gwrthbleidiau wedi cyflwyno cynnig ar y cyd, ond, yn anffodus, roedd amser yn ein herbyn, ac o ystyried bod y tair gwrthblaid yn credu bod y mater o ad-drefnu’r sector addysg uwch yn hollbwysig, ni allem oedi wrth godi’r pwnc hwn.

I also extend my congratulations to my opposite number on his award last night as Welsh politician of the year. You and I may not agree on all aspects of your policy—or, indeed, on many aspects of your policy—but no-one doubts your not inconsiderable political skills. Well done, Leighton.

Estynnaf fy llongyfarchiadau hefyd i’m cyfatebydd ar ei wobr fel gwleidydd Cymreig y flwyddyn neithiwr. Efallai nad ydym yn cytuno ar bob agwedd ar eich polisi—neu, yn wir, ar sawl agwedd ar eich polisi—ond nid oes neb yn amau eich sgiliau gwleidyddol sylweddol. Da iawn, Leighton.

I will address the three key points of our motion in the order that they appear on the agenda. First, we ask the Welsh Government to realign higher education policy to strengthen teaching standards and improve graduate outcomes. I acknowledge that the Minister is also wedded to the improvement in standards agenda, and I recognise that the Government has finally commenced on that direction of travel. However, in order to be successful, we must ensure that our universities raise their game. Our world and UK rankings are poor, academic excellence is not seen to be rigorous enough in some areas and I believe that the learner of the future will be looking for and deserving of a far more personalised experience of university.

Byddaf yn cyfeirio at y tri phwynt allweddol yn ein cynnig yn y drefn y maent yn ymddangos ar yr agenda. Yn gyntaf, rydym yn gofyn i Lywodraeth Cymru i ad-drefnu’r polisi addysg uwch i gryfhau safonau addysgu a gwella deilliannau graddedigion. Cydnabyddaf fod y Gweinidog hefyd yn glynu at yr agenda gwelliant mewn safonau, ac yr wyf yn cydnabod bod y Llywodraeth wedi dechrau ar y daith i’r cyfeiriad hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, er mwyn bod yn llwyddiannus, rhaid sicrhau bod ein prifysgolion yn codi eu gêm. Mae ein safle yn y tablau byd-eang a’r DU yn wael, ni welir rhagoriaeth academaidd yn ddigon trylwyr mewn rhai ardaloedd, a chredaf y bydd y dysgwr yn y dyfodol yn chwilio am ac yn haeddu profiad llawer mwy personol o brifysgol.

We should not compromise on excellence. The Welsh Conservatives believe that it is imperative that graduates in Wales are equipped with the skills to secure meaningful employment in a competitive market. In this country, we generate more graduates than we recruit into employment. Our graduates need to stand out; academic excellence, skills and relevance to the workplace must be key.

Ni ddylem gyfaddawdu ar ragoriaeth. Mae’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn credu ei bod yn hanfodol bod graddedigion yng Nghymru yn meddu ar y sgiliau i sicrhau cyflogaeth ystyrlon mewn marchnad gystadleuol. Yn y wlad hon, rydym yn cynhyrchu mwy o raddedigion nag yr ydym yn eu recriwtio i gyflogaeth. Mae angen i’n graddedigion sefyll allan; rhaid i ragoriaeth academaidd, sgiliau a pherthnasedd i’r gweithle fod yn allweddol.

Secondly, we ask the Welsh Government to establish Welsh higher education institutions as centres for postgraduate and research excellence. This drive is vital to the lifeblood of our country. Others will speak on this in far more detail, but I will make one simple observation. Swansea University has 13,396 students, of which 11,416 are undergraduates and 1,980 postgraduates. The universities of Aberystwyth and Bangor have, between them, 16,516 undergraduates and 4,192 postgraduates. Yet, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology has 10,566 students, of which 4,299 are undergraduates and 6,267 are postgraduates. Stanford has 6,988 undergraduates and 12,957 postgraduates. There are many other examples, which show the collaboration between the strength and depth of postgraduate students and the access to research grants and the concomitant rise in results, excellence and reputation. We are good at making undergraduates, with variable standards in some cases, but to be recognised, ranked, and to make them attractive to investment, research projects and to the rest of the world, we need to increase the numbers and calibre of our postgraduates and our research facilities.

Yn ail, rydym yn gofyn i Lywodraeth Cymru sefydlu sefydliadau addysg uwch Cymru fel canolfannau ar gyfer ôl-raddedigion a rhagoriaeth ymchwil. Mae’r ymgyrch yn hanfodol i enaid ein gwlad. Bydd eraill yn siarad am hyn mewn llawer mwy o fanylder, ond gwnaf un sylw syml. Mae gan Brifysgol Abertawe 13,396 o fyfyrwyr ac y mae 11,416 yn israddedigion a 1,980 yn ôl-raddedigion. Mae gan brifysgolion Aberystwyth a Bangor, rhyngddynt, 16,516 o israddedigion a 4,192 o raddedigion. Eto i gyd, mae gan Sefydliad Technoleg Massachusetts 10,566 o fyfyrwyr, y mae 4,299 yn israddedigion a 6,267 yn ôl-raddedigion. Mae gan Stanford 6,988 o israddedigion a 12,957 o ôl-raddedigion. Mae llawer o enghreifftiau eraill, sy’n dangos y cydweithio rhwng cryfder a dyfnder myfyrwyr ôl-raddedig a mynediad at grantiau ymchwil a’r cynnydd cydredol mewn canlyniadau, rhagoriaeth ac enw da. Rydym yn dda am gynhyrchu israddedigion, gyda safonau amrywiol mewn rhai achosion, ond er mwyn iddynt gael eu cydnabod, eu rhoi mewn trefn restrol, eu gwneud yn ddeniadol i fuddsoddiad, i brosiectau ymchwil ac i weddill y byd, mae angen inni gynyddu niferoedd a safon ein ôl-raddedigion a’n  cyfleusterau ymchwil.

Our final point in the motion is seeking for the Welsh Government to prioritise—

Mae ein pwynt olaf yn y cynnig yn gofyn i Lywodraeth Cymru i flaenoriaethu—

The Minister for Education and Skills (Leighton Andrews): I start by thanking the Member for her kind remarks at the outset of her speech. I am interested in what she has to say about the need to expand the research base of higher education in Wales and the number of postgraduates. However, will she tell me how that is compatible with the policy of her party, which wants to ring-fence spending on the health service and, therefore, would have to impose cuts in education?

Y Gweinidog Addysg a Sgiliau (Leighton Andrews): Dechreuaf drwy ddiolch i’r Aelod am ei sylwadau caredig ar ddechrau ei haraith. Mae gennyf ddiddordeb yn yr hyn sydd ganddi i’w ddweud am yr angen i ehangu sylfaen ymchwil addysg uwch yng Nghymru a nifer yr ôl-raddedigion. Fodd bynnag, a wnaiff ddweud wrthyf sut y mae hynny’n gydnaws â pholisi ei phlaid a oedd yn awyddus i neilltuo gwariant ar y gwasanaeth iechyd gan, felly, ei gorfodi i gyflwyno toriadau mewn addysg?

Angela Burns: I would be absolutely delighted to have a meeting with you, Minister, to go through with you in great detail the budget that we so carefully put forward just before the Welsh election, to show you exactly how we would fund education. That is not a problem.

Angela Burns: Byddwn yn falch dros ben o gael cyfarfod â chi, Weinidog, i fynd drwy manylion y gyllideb yr oeddem wedi’i chyflwyno mor ofalus ychydig cyn yr etholiad yng Nghymru, i ddangos i chi sut yn union y byddem yn ariannu addysg. Nid yw hynny’n broblem.

Our final point in the motion is seeking for the Welsh Government to prioritise voluntary collaboration in preference to forced mergers between higher education institutions. The much awaited proposals for the reorganisation of the higher education sector were laid before the Assembly by way of a statement on 29 November. Statements do not leave time or latitude for debate and these proposals, which are sound in part and draconian in other, need the oxygen of debate: oxygen that will enable the Minister to hear where we agree, where we support, where we have concerns and where we find we cannot agree. There is much to be supportive of. Collaboration is the new mantra and rightfully so. Collaboration that maximises the synergies of organisations, groups and peoples is to be welcomed. Collaborative effort requires a joint vision, constancy and support, and it is on this subject that I will base most of my contribution.

Ein pwynt olaf yn y cynnig yw gofyn i Lywodraeth Cymru flaenoriaethu cydweithio gwirfoddol yn hytrach nag uno gorfodol rhwng sefydliadau addysg uwch. Mae’r cynigion hirddisgwyliedig i ad-drefnu’r sector addysg uwch yn cael eu gosod gerbron y Cynulliad drwy gyfrwng datganiad ar 29 Tachwedd. Nid yw datganiadau yn rhoi amser na rhyddid i drafod ac y mae’r cynigion hyn, sy’n gadarn mewn rhannau ac yn ddidostur mewn eraill, yn gofyn am ocsigen trafodaeth: ocsigen a fydd yn galluogi’r Gweinidog i glywed ar beth yr ydym yn cytuno, yr hyn yr ydym yn ei gefnogi, lle mae gennym bryderon a lle rydym yn anghytuno. Mae yna lawer i’w  gefnogi. Cydweithredu yw’r mantra newydd ac y mae hynny’n gwbl briodol. Mae cydweithredu sy’n gwneud y mwyaf o synergeddau sefydliadau, grwpiau a phobloedd i’w groesawu. Mae ymdrech gydweithredol yn gofyn am gydweledigaeth, cysondeb a chymorth, ac ar y pwnc hwn y byddaf yn seilio’r rhan fwyaf o’m cyfraniad.

The Higher Education Funding Council for Wales put forward a consultative document, ‘The Future Shape of the Higher Education Sector in Wales’, which made some radical suggestions, the main thrust of which is that Wales should have a smaller number of universities. I have heard the HEFCW argument that Welsh universities lack critical mass, and I would agree that that argument is valid in some cases. However, I remain unconvinced that the remaining universities are in a parlous state. The Minister’s statement made clear his direction of travel, and given the determination with which the Minister has stated his intention to pursue dissolution as a cudgel to bring non-complaint universities to heel, I would seek to ensure that the following points are given enough oxygen so that neither debate nor institution is stifled.

Cyflwynodd Cyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru ddogfen ymgynghorol, ‘Dyfodol Addysg Uwch yng Nghymru’, a oedd yn gwneud rhai awgrymiadau radical, a’i brif fyrdwn yw y dylai Cymru gael nifer llai o brifysgolion. Yr wyf wedi clywed dadl y cyngor cyllido fod prifysgolion Cymru yn brin o fàs critigol, a byddwn yn cytuno bod y ddadl honno’n ddilys mewn rhai achosion. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn dal yn argyhoeddedig fod y prifysgolion sy’n weddill mewn cyflwr enbyd. Roedd datganiad y Gweinidog yn dangos cyfeiriad ei daith yn glir, ac o ystyried y penderfyniad y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’i ddangos wrth ddatgan ei fwriad i fynd ar drywydd diddymiad gyda phastwn i wastrodi prifysgolion anghydsyniol, byddwn yn ceisio sicrhau bod y pwyntiau canlynol yn cael digon o ocsigen fel nad yw naill ai’r ddadl na’r sefydliad yn cael eu mygu.

We should recognise that, since 2003, there have already been four new partnerships, which are Cardiff University and the Cardiff University School of Medicine; the University of Glamorgan and Merthyr Tydfil College; the University of Glamorgan and the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama; Trinity College and the University of Wales, Lampeter; and the University of Wales Trinity St David and Swansea Metropolitan University are currently going through the process. These partnerships were based on a level of existing collaboration and a joint vision in which all the component parts were enabled to bring to the table their strengths and individual ethos. This collaborative spirit enabled the changes to be completed, but we must recognise that some of the elements and barriers to be overcome proved to be expensive and difficult to re-engineer, and posed some considerable risk for those institutions.

Dylem gydnabod bod pedair partneriaeth newydd wedi’u creu ers 2003, sef Prifysgol Caerdydd ac Ysgol Feddygaeth Prifysgol Caerdydd; Prifysgol Morgannwg a Choleg Merthyr Tudful; Prifysgol Morgannwg a Choleg Brenhinol Cerdd a Drama Cymru; Coleg y Drindod a Phrifysgol Cymru, Llanbedr Pont Steffan; a Phrifysgol Cymru y Drindod Dewi Sant a Phrifysgol Fetropolitan Abertawe sydd ar hyn o bryd yn mynd drwy’r broses. Roedd y partneriaethau hyn yn seiliedig ar lefel o gydweithio presennol a gweledigaeth ar y cyd lle’r oedd yr holl gydrannau yn cael eu galluogi i ddod at y bwrdd a’u cryfderau a’u hethos unigol. Roedd yr ysbryd cydweithredol hwn yn galluogi’r newidiadau i gael eu cwblhau, ond rhaid inni gydnabod bod rhai o’r elfennau a rhwystrau i’w goresgyn wedi profi’n ddrud ac yn anodd eu hailgynllunio, ac wedi peri rhywfaint o risg sylweddol ar gyfer y sefydliadau hynny.

The HEFCW report set out a range of options, the most controversial of which were with regard to Glyndŵr University and the south-east Wales universities of Glamorgan, Newport and Cardiff Metropolitan. Yet, while HEFCW and the Welsh Government, supported by Higher Education Wales, pursue the route of ‘big is best’, it should be noted that other countries have either created, or are taking a view on creating, smaller but highly focused HE institutions to deliver targeted academic excellence. 

Mae'r adroddiad CCAUC yn nodi ystod o opsiynau a’r mwyaf dadleuol ohonynt mewn perthynas â Phrifysgol Glyndŵr a phrifysgolion de-ddwyrain Morgannwg, Casnewydd a Metropolitan Caerdydd. Eto i gyd, er bod CCAUC a Llywodraeth Cymru, a gefnogir gan Addysg Uwch Cymru, ar drywydd y llwybr ‘gorau po fwyaf’, dylid nodi bod gwledydd eraill naill ai wedi creu, neu’n cymryd golwg ar greu, sefydliadau AU llai â ffocws treiddgar er mwyn cyflawni rhagoriaeth academaidd wedi’i dargedu. 

In his statement, the Minister leaves Cardiff and Swansea universities to pursue their own agendas but encourages collaboration. His words with regard to Aberystwyth and Bangor are interesting. The Minister does not expect them to progress to a formal merger at this stage. Therefore, the question remains: does the Minister see the HEFCW recommendation coming to fruition at some point?

Yn ei ddatganiad, mae’r Gweinidog yn gadael prifysgolion Caerdydd ac Abertawe i fynd ar drywydd eu hagendâu eu hunain ond yn annog cydweithredu. Mae ei eiriau o ran Aberystwyth a Bangor yn ddiddorol. Nid yw’r Gweinidog yn disgwyl iddynt symud ymlaen at uno ffurfiol ar hyn o bryd. Felly, erys y cwestiwn: a yw’r Gweinidog yn credu y bydd argymhelliad CCAUC yn dwyn ffrwyth rhywbryd?

I attended the formal launch of the strategic alliance between Bangor University and Aberystwyth University today, and noted with interest that the director general of education and skills for the Welsh Government, when talking of the future for those great universities, made the comment that joint governance arrangements would be a platform on which to build and move forward. What impact would that have on Glyndŵr University? It is the smallest of our universities, yet it is miraculously left alone to deepen relationships with the further education sector.

Mynychais lansiad ffurfiol y cynghrair strategol rhwng Prifysgol Bangor a Phrifysgol Aberystwyth heddiw, a nodais gyda diddordeb fod cyfarwyddwr cyffredinol addysg a sgiliau ar gyfer Llywodraeth Cymru, wrth siarad am ddyfodol y prifysgolion mawr hynny, wedi gwneud y sylw y byddai trefniadau llywodraethu ar y cyd yn llwyfan ar gyfer adeiladu a symud ymlaen. Pa effaith a gâi hynny ar Brifysgol Glyndŵr? Dyna’r lleiaf o’n prifysgolion, ac eto mae’n cael ei gadael ar ei phen ei hun yn wyrthiol i ddyfnhau ei pherthynas â’r sector addysg bellach.

In respect of Glyndŵr, the Minister has chosen not to accept the advice but promises to consider more closely the existing pattern of HE provision in north Wales and to make a further announcement in due course. Make no mistake, I along with Antoinette Sandbach, Mark Isherwood and any number of Labour MPs and AMs believe that Glyndŵr should be supported and developed within its current ambit, but—and I address this to Labour backbenchers, including well-meaning individuals like Ken Skates, who has been saying in his press releases that Labour saved HE in north-east Wales—I fear that Glyndŵr has simply been kicked into the long grass for the time being. 

O ran Glyndŵr, mae’r Gweinidog wedi dewis peidio â derbyn y cyngor ond mae’n addo ystyried yn fanylach patrwm presennol darpariaeth AU yng ngogledd Cymru ac i wneud cyhoeddiad pellach maes o law. Peidiwch â gwneud camgymeriad, yr wyf i ynghyd ag Antoinette Sandbach, Mark Isherwood a nifer o ASau ac ACau Llafur yn credu y dylai Glyndŵr gael ei gefnogi a’i ddatblygu o fewn ei gwmpas presennol, ond—ac yr wyf yn cyfeirio hyn at feincwyr cefn Llafur, gan gynnwys unigolion â’r bwriadau gorau fel Ken Skates, sydd wedi bod yn dweud yn ei ddatganiadau i’r wasg fod Llafur wedi achub AU yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Cymru—ofnaf fod Glyndŵr, yn syml, wedi cael ei chicio o'r neilltu am y tro. 

Political persuasion from colleagues may have played a part. I also wonder whether Glyndŵr and the north Wales universities would be easier to deal with in future if the Minister manages to have his way with the universities of south east Wales. So we come to the controversial issue of the proposed mergers of the University of Glamorgan, Cardiff Metropolitan University and the University of Wales, Newport.

Mae’n bosib fod perswâd gwleidyddol gan gydweithwyr wedi chwarae rhan. Tybed hefyd a fydd Glyndŵr a phrifysgolion gogledd Cymru yn haws i ddelio â nhw yn y dyfodol os yw’r Gweinidog yn llwyddo i gael ei ffordd gyda phrifysgolion de ddwyrain Cymru. Felly, rydym yn dod at fater dadleuol uno arfaethedig Prifysgol Morgannwg, Prifysgol Fetropolitan Caerdydd a Phrifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd.

Lord Elis-Thomas: I want to declare an interest, as I am wearing the Bangor University tie. I just want to make it clear that, in fact, the Minister has given to us in north Wales what I think most of us wanted, namely the opportunity and the time to first sort out our arrangements and to see how collaboration works. I am grateful to him for doing that. Will she accept that?

Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: Yr wyf am ddatgan buddiant, gan fy mod yn gwisgo tei Prifysgol Bangor. Yr wyf am ei wneud yn glir bod y Gweinidog, mewn gwirionedd,  wedi rhoi i ni yng ngogledd Cymru yr hyn yr wyf yn meddwl yr oedd y rhan fwyaf ohonom ei eisiau, sef y cyfle a’r amser i ddatrys, yn gyntaf, ein trefniadau ac i weld sut y mae cydweithio yn gweithio. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar iddo am wneud hynny. A wnaiff hi dderbyn hynny?

Angela Burns: I most certainly will, and I have already mentioned the strategic alliance, the event for which I attended this morning. I will be talking about it again. However, my point is that I do not wish this to be trumpeted as Glyndŵr having been saved, when I suspect that Glyndŵr may not be saved.

Angela Burns: Gwnaf, yn sicr, ac yr wyf eisoes wedi sôn am y gynghrair strategol, y digwyddiad a fynychais y bore yma. Byddaf yn siarad am y peth eto. Fodd bynnag, fy mhwynt yw nad wyf yn dymuno i hyn gael ei gyhoeddi fel pe bai Glyndŵr wedi cael ei achub, pan wyf yn amau na fydd Glyndŵr yn cael ei achub.

Cardiff Metropolitan and Newport have very clearly laid out their stalls as to how they see the future of their institutions unfolding, and Glamorgan has been very clear that the success of any merger depends on the compatibility of the institutions. Success in a merger does not occur randomly. I agree, and I would go so far as to add that a reluctant partner such as Cardiff Metropolitan—where the management, most of the staff and the students are resolutely opposed to it—will not make a good fit. The threat of dissolution as a weapon to ensure compliance is deeply regrettable. The Welsh Conservatives urge our higher education institutions to maximise their strengths, minimise their weaknesses and seek to deliver for the students by collaborative working in a positive and visionary way. We would welcome that. I urge the Minister to bend his intellect and energies to developing a climate of co-operation and trust in which these institutions can operate without feeling threatened.

Mae Prifysgol Fetropolitan Caerdydd a Chasnewydd wedi dangos yn glir sut y maent yn gweld dyfodol eu sefydliadau yn datblygu, ac mae Morgannwg wedi bod yn glir iawn bod llwyddiant unrhyw uno yn dibynnu ar gydnawsedd y sefydliadau. Nid yw llwyddiant o ganlyniad i uno yn digwydd ar hap. Cytunaf, a byddwn yn mynd mor bell ag ychwanegu na fydd partner amharod fel Caerdydd Metropolitan—lle mae’r rheolaeth, a’r rhan fwyaf o’r staff a’r myfyrwyr yn gadarn yn eu gwrthwynebiad—yn ddewis da iawn. Mae bygwth diddymiad fel arf i sicrhau cydymffurfiaeth yn anffodus tu hwnt. Mae’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn annog ein sefydliadau addysg uwch i wneud y gorau o’u cryfderau, i leihau eu gwendidau a cheisio cyflawni ar gyfer y myfyrwyr drwy weithio ar y cyd mewn ffordd gadarnhaol a gweledigaethol. Byddem yn croesawu hynny. Anogaf y Gweinidog i blygu ei ddeallusrwydd ac egni i ddatblygu hinsawdd o gydweithredu ac ymddiriedaeth lle gall y sefydliadau hyn weithredu heb deimlo dan fygythiad.

I have already mentioned the launch of the strategic alliance between Aberystwyth and Bangor, and I would like to use a comment made by Professor April McMahon, vice-chancellor of Aberystwyth, who said that both the universities saw this as a birth, not a marriage. It enhances proud, independent, sustainable institutions. I and my colleagues on these benches would wholeheartedly agree with that vision, and I am sure that it is the sort of vision that we could collectively engender within the higher education sector.

Yr wyf eisoes wedi crybwyll lansio’r cynghrair strategol rhwng Aberystwyth a Bangor, a hoffwn ddefnyddio sylw a wnaed gan yr Athro April McMahon, is-ganghellor Aberystwyth, a ddywedodd fod y prifysgolion yn gweld hyn fel genedigaeth, nid priodas. Mae’n gwella sefydliadau balch, annibynnol a chynaliadwy. Byddwn i a fy nghydweithwyr ar y meinciau hyn yn cytuno’n llwyr â'r weledigaeth honno, ac yr wyf yn siŵr mai dyna’r math o weledigaeth y gallem feithrin ar y cyd o fewn y sector addysg uwch.

I am very aware of the time. I have a section on finance that I would like to touch on, because I do not believe that these institutions are in the financially parlous state claimed. However, I am going to leave that aside now, and concentrate finally on the key questions that we need to address.

Yr wyf yn ymwybodol iawn o’r amser. Mae gennyf adran ar gyllid yr hoffwn ei chrybwyll, oherwydd ni chredaf fod y sefydliadau hyn yn y sefyllfa ariannol enbyd y maent yn ei hawlio.  Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn mynd i adael hynny o’r neilltu yn awr, a chanolbwyntio yn olaf ar y cwestiynau allweddol y mae angen inni roi sylw iddynt.

Voluntary partnerships are much preferred to threats of hostile takeovers or forced mergers. If dissolution is the route that we are talking about taking, are we talking about two or three dissolutions to create a brand new university? Are we talking about a proper merger or are we talking about takeovers? Have we looked at all the possible combinations in a structured and properly independent manner? If Newport and Glamorgan could find a way forward, would they be a possible new institution? If partnerships and voluntary mergers go ahead, how can the component institutions preserve and develop their ethos while developing and buying into a shared vision? What costs will be involved in both a successful and, indeed, an unsuccessful outcome? How can the Minister make good on his promise that there would be no campus closures? How can we ensure fairness and transparency in the redeployment of staff and protect each and every job? How do we address the comments made by HEFCW at the beginning of its proposals, when it stated that its views were not evidence-based? Above all, how do we raise standards, develop research and encourage all students from all backgrounds to be the best they can for their futures and for the future of Wales?

Mae partneriaethau gwirfoddol yn cael eu ffafrio mwy na bygythiadau o feddiannu yn groes i ewyllys y sefydliadau neu orfodi uno. Os mai diddymiad yw'r llwybr yr ydym yn sôn am ei gymryd, a ydym yn sôn am ddau neu dri diddymiad i greu prifysgol newydd sbon? A ydym yn sôn am uno priodol neu am feddiannu? A ydym ni wedi edrych ar yr holl gyfuniadau posibl mewn modd strwythuredig ac annibynnol iawn? Pe gallai Casnewydd a Morgannwg ddod o hyd i ffordd ymlaen, a fyddent yn sefydliad newydd posibl? Os bydd partneriaethau a chyfuniadau gwirfoddol yn mynd yn eu blaen, sut gall y sefydliadau gydran gadw a datblygu eu hethos wrth ddatblygu a phrynu i mewn i weledigaeth a rennir? Beth fydd cost canlyniad llwyddiannus ac, yn wir, un aflwyddiannus? Sut y gall y Gweinidog gadw ei addewid na fydd unrhyw gampws yn cau? Sut y gallwn sicrhau tegwch a thryloywder wrth adleoli staff ac amddiffyn pob swydd? Sut y dylem ymdrin â’r sylwadau a wnaed gan CCAUC ar ddechrau ei gynigion, pan nododd nad oedd ei farn yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth? Yn anad dim, sut mae codi safonau, datblygu ymchwil ac annog pob myfyriwr o bob cefndir i fod y gorau y gallant fod ar gyfer eu dyfodol a dyfodol Cymru?

David Rees: Thank you for allowing me to speak in this debate, Llywydd. First, I want to put on record my praise for the staff in higher education, for their hard work and dedication to the subjects that they teach. I am not just talking about academic staff, but librarians, support staff, technicians and the whole collective of staff in HE, including counsellors.

David Rees: Diolch am ganiatáu imi siarad yn y ddadl hon, Lywydd. Yn gyntaf, yr wyf am gofnodi fy nghanmoliaeth i’r staff mewn addysg uwch, am eu gwaith caled a’u hymroddiad i’r pynciau y maent yn eu haddysgu. Nid wyf yn sôn am y staff academaidd yn unig, ond am lyfrgellwyr, staff cymorth, technegwyr a’r holl staff yn AU, gan gynnwys cynghorwyr.

Moving on, I want to express my dismay at the wording of the motion tabled today. I know that we have just had an explanation of the three points, but as an individual who has worked as a lecturer and an academic manager for over 20 years in the sector, it shows me that the party opposite does not understand the HE sector at all. In fact, if I were going to grade this motion, I would give it an F and say, ‘Must do better’.

Gan symud ymlaen, yr wyf am fynegi fy siom o ran geiriad y cynnig a gyflwynir heddiw. Gwn ein bod newydd gael esboniad o’r tri phwynt, ond fel unigolyn sydd wedi gweithio fel darlithydd a rheolwr academaidd am dros 20 mlynedd yn y sector, mae’n dangos imi nad yw’r blaid gyferbyn yn deall y sector AU o gwbl. Yn wir, os oeddwn yn mynd i roi gradd i’r cynnig hwn, byddwn yn rhoi F iddo a dweud, ‘Rhaid gwneud yn well’.

2.30 p.m.

The motion talks about teaching standards and graduate outcomes, but I remind the opposition that the QAA—the Quality Assurance Agency, for the uninitiated—and a host of external examiners provide the quality assurance facilities for these institutions, and its reports are public documents that can been seen. To state that this is not rigorous in some areas—and I am not considering overseas work at the moment, but work at home—will upset many individuals who work very hard in those institutions, of which I used to be one. My job was to ensure that those standards were rigorously maintained, and I can assure you that they were. If you want to talk about graduate outcomes, please first look at GO Wales to see how students and businesses are benefitting from the talent that we are producing—so much so that they are being snapped up by many employers afterwards. So, the outcomes are positive. I am not saying that we cannot improve, but you should not denigrate what has been done.

Mae’r cynnig yn sôn am safonau addysgu a chanlyniadau graddedigion, ond atgoffaf yr wrthblaid bod yr ASA—yr Asiantaeth Sicrhau Ansawdd, i’r anghyfarwydd—a llu o arholwyr allanol yn darparu’r cyfleusterau sicrwydd ansawdd ar gyfer y sefydliadau hyn, ac mae ei adroddiadau’n ddogfennau cyhoeddus y gellid eu gweld. Byddai datgan nad yw hyn yn drylwyr mewn rhai ardaloedd—ac nid wyf yn ystyried gwaith dramor ar hyn o bryd, ond gwaith cartref—yn cynhyrfu llawer o unigolion sy’n gweithio’n galed iawn yn y sefydliadau hynny, yr oeddwn i’n un ohonynt ar un adeg. Fy swydd oedd sicrhau y cedwir y safonau hynny’n drylwyr, a gallaf eich sicrhau y cafodd hynny ei wneud. Os ydych am sôn am ddeilliannau graddedigion, edrychwch yn gyntaf ar GO Wales i weld sut mae myfyrwyr a busnesau’n elwa ar y dalent yr ydym yn ei chynhyrchu—i’r fath raddau nes eu bod yn cael eu bachu gan nifer o gyflogwyr wedyn. Felly, mae’r canlyniadau’n gadarnhaol. Nid wyf yn dweud na allwn wella, ond ni ddylech ddifrïo’r hyn sydd wedi’i wneud.

Simon Thomas: I thank David Rees for giving way. He is right that many graduates do very well and we have schemes to help them. Nevertheless, during a recent visit I made to Aberystwyth University, it admitted that it needed to improve not only the graduate experience, but the long-term employability of its graduates. It admitted that. That is something that it saw as an aim.

Simon Thomas: Diolch i David Rees am ildio. Mae’n iawn fod nifer o raddedigion yn gwneud yn dda iawn ac mae gennym gynlluniau i’w helpu. Serch hynny, yn ystod ymweliad diweddar i Brifysgol Aberystwyth, cyfaddefodd fod angen iddi wella nid yn unig profiad y person graddedig, ond cyflogadwyedd ei graddedigion yn y tymor hir. Cyfaddefodd hynny. Mae hynny’n rhywbeth y gwelodd fel nod.

David Rees: I agree with your points on long-term employability and employability skills, and I will go on to discuss those in a moment.

David Rees: Cytunaf â’ch pwyntiau ar gyflogadwyedd hirdymor a sgiliau cyflogadwyedd, ac af ymlaen i sôn am hynny mewn eiliad.

On the second point of the motion, all HE institutions strive for excellence in research. In fact, the last research assessment exercise will give you examples of how every institution in Wales has world-class achievements in its research. This might vary across subjects, and the percentages will vary, but this is true of them all, so they are striving for excellence and we must not take that away from them. Therefore, please do your homework and look at this, and you will see that it is there.

Ar ail bwynt y cynnig, mae pob sefydliad AU yn ymdrechu am ragoriaeth mewn ymchwil. Mewn gwirionedd, bydd yr ymarfer asesu ymchwil diwethaf yn rhoi enghreifftiau ichi o sut mae gan bob sefydliad yng Nghymru cyflawniadau o’r radd flaenaf yn ei ymchwil. Gallai hyn amrywio ar draws pynciau, a bydd y canrannau’n amrywio, ond mae hyn yn wir am bob un ohonynt, felly maent yn ymdrechu am ragoriaeth a rhaid inni beidio â chymryd hynny oddi wrthynt. Felly, os gwelwch yn dda, gwnewch eich gwaith cartref ac edrychwch ar hyn, a gwelwch ei fod yno.

You talked about MIT and Stanford University, but that balances it incorrectly. I notice that you did not mention Oxford or Cambridge, where the figures are slightly different. You can talk about UCLA, the University of California, Berkeley, Pennsylvania State University, but you will see that they all have different figures, but MIT and Stanford University are specifically different.

Soniasoch am MIT a Phrifysgol Stanford, ond mae hynny’n ei bwyso’n anghywir. Sylwaf na soniasoch am Rydychen neu Gaergrawnt, lle mae’r ffigurau ychydig yn wahanol. Gallwch siarad am UCLA, Prifysgol, Berkeley a  Phrifysgol Talaith Pennsylvania, ond byddwch yn gweld bod ganddynt oll ffigurau gwahanol, ond mae MIT a Phrifysgol Stanford yn benodol wahanol.

In relation to the third point of the motion, everyone would agree that voluntary collaboration is by far the best option; no-one disputes that. In fact, the university at which I worked, Swansea Metropolitan University, is merging with the University of Wales Trinity Saint David. You said that there was existing collaboration, but there was not collaboration prior to the talks; there then followed collaboration to allow that merger to take place. I was there, so I know this to be the case.

O ran trydydd pwynt y cynnig, byddai pawb yn cytuno mai cydweithredu gwirfoddol yw’r opsiwn gorau o bell ffordd; nid yw unrhyw un yn dadlau hynny. Yn wir, mae’r  brifysgol lle y gweithiais i, Prifysgol Fetropolitan Abertawe, yn uno gyda Phrifysgol Cymru Y Drindod Dewi Sant. Dywedasoch fod cydweithio sydd eisoes yn bodoli, ond nid oedd cydweithio cyn y trafodaethau; cafwyd cydweithio wedyn i ganiatáu’r uno hwnnw i gymryd lle. Yr oeddwn yno, felly gwn mai dyna a ddigwyddodd.

With regard to forced mergers, some parties do not wish to progress improvements brought about by collaboration. This needs to be tackled. I was a member of the regional council of the National Association of Teachers in Further and Higher Education when the University of Wales Institute, Cardiff, as it was then, and the University of Glamorgan were talking about merging. I can give you some insights—although I will not do that here, but privately—that demonstrate clearly why that merger failed. The staff of neither institution were against the merger.

O ran gorfodi uno, nid yw rhai pleidiau’n dymuno rhoi’r gwelliannau a ddaw yn sgil cydweithio ar waith. Mae angen mynd i’r afael â hyn. Yr oeddwn yn aelod o gyngor rhanbarthol Cymdeithas Genedlaethol Athrawon mewn Addysg Bellach ac Uwch pan oedd yr Athrofa Prifysgol Cymru, Caerdydd, fel yr oedd pryd hynny, a Phrifysgol Morgannwg yn sôn am uno. Gallaf roi ichi rywfaint o fewnwelediad—er ni wnaf hynny yn y fan hon, ond yn breifat—sy’n dangos yn glir pam y methodd yr uno hwnnw. Nid oedd y staff o’r naill sefydliad yn erbyn yr uno.

It would have been better to focus this motion on ensuring that the Welsh Government’s plans are sustainable and that they do not allow a dilution of the mission of HE or a reduction in the provision available to students—in other words, to ensure that they do not impact negatively on the student experience, but that the reverse is true and they have a positive impact. They should provide levers to ensure that research outcomes are continually improved. That includes being able to secure more research funding from various bodies. That is where we are falling down. I know that the universities want to be among the top 100 or 200 universities in the world through research collaborations. It should also seek to improve a vibrant sector that is governed well. That is important. Governors must provide confidence to business, students, prospective students and the Government that the sector is delivering to the required standards. Those are the points on which I will be seeking assurances from the Minister, and I have already expressed my concerns to him in relation to those points.

Byddai wedi bod yn well i’r cynnig hwn ganolbwyntio ar sicrhau bod cynlluniau Llywodraeth Cymru’n gynaliadwy ac nad ydynt yn caniatáu gwanhau cenhadaeth AU neu ostyngiad yn y ddarpariaeth sydd ar gael i fyfyrwyr—mewn geiriau eraill, sicrhau nad ydynt yn effeithio’n negyddol ar brofiad myfyrwyr, ond bod y gwrthwyneb yn wir a’u bod yn cael effaith gadarnhaol. Dylent ddarparu ysgogiadau i sicrhau bod canlyniadau ymchwil yn cael eu gwella’n barhaus. Mae hynny’n cynnwys y gallu i sicrhau mwy o arian ymchwil gan gyrff amrywiol. Dyna le yr ydym yn cwympo i lawr. Gwn fod y prifysgolion am fod ymhlith y 100 neu 200 o brifysgolion gorau yn y byd drwy gydweithrediadau ymchwil. Dylai hefyd geisio gwella’r sector bywiog sydd yn cael ei lywodraethu’n dda. Mae hynny’n bwysig. Rhaid i’r llywodraethwyr roi hyder i fusnesau, myfyrwyr, darpar fyfyrwyr a’r Llywodraeth bod y sector yn cyflawni i’r safonau gofynnol. Y rheiny yw’r pwyntiau y byddaf yn ceisio sicrwydd gan y Gweinidog arnynt, ac yr wyf eisoes wedi mynegi fy mhryderon iddo yng nghyswllt y pwyntiau hynny.

Like many colleagues, I support the Minister for grasping the nettle to restructure HE in Wales. We need to provide encouragement for business and create the environment that allows businesses to work with academia. That is what this is all about.

Fel nifer o gydweithwyr, cefnogaf y Gweinidog am fanteisio ar y cyfle i ailstrwythuro AU yng Nghymru. Mae angen inni annog busnes a chreu amgylchedd sy’n galluogi busnesau i weithio gyda’r byd academaidd. Dyna hanfod hyn oll.

Mark Isherwood: As someone who previously worked for a medium-sized organisation and who sat on the board of another, both of which were frequently courted by larger but weaker organisations seeking to take us over in order to strengthen themselves, I know that big is not always beautiful, more efficient or more cost-effective. It has been reported today that Bangor and Aberystwyth universities are to sign a deal to work together. The vice-chancellor of Bangor said that this reflects the views of the Minister. I declare that one of my daughters is an Aberystwyth graduate and another is in her final year at Bangor. They are both excellent institutions. As I said in response to the Minister’s statement on higher education last week, Aberystwyth and Bangor are already developing a strategic partnership. These chartered institutions do not need a meddling Minister looking over their shoulder or seeking to micromanage their futures.

Mark Isherwood: Fel rhywun sydd wedi gweithio i sefydliad canolig o’r blaen ac wedi eistedd ar fwrdd un arall, ac yr oedd sefydliadau mwy o faint ond yn wannach yn aml yn ceisio cefnogaeth y ddau er mwyn cryfhau eu hunain, gwn nad yw rhywbeth mawr bob amser yn  hardd, yn fwy effeithlon neu’n fwy cost-effeithiol. Adroddwyd heddiw bod prifysgolion Bangor ac Aberystwyth yn mynd i lofnodi cytundeb i weithio gyda’i gilydd. Dywedodd is-ganghellor Bangor bod hyn yn adlewyrchu barn y Gweinidog. Datganaf fod un o fy merched wedi graddio o Aberystwyth ac mae un arall yn ei blwyddyn olaf ym Mangor. Mae’r ddau yn sefydliadau rhagorol. Fel y dywedais mewn ymateb i ddatganiad y Gweinidog ar addysg uwch yr wythnos diwethaf, mae Aberystwyth a Bangor eisoes wedi datblygu partneriaeth strategol. Nid oes angen ar y sefydliadau siartredig hyn Weinidog busneslyd sy’n edrych dros eu hysgwyddau neu geisio meicroreoli eu dyfodol.

Lord Elis-Thomas rose—

Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas a gododd—

Mark Isherwood: I will give way in a moment. In his statement last week, the Minister said that he did not expect the strategic partnership between Aberystwyth and Bangor to progress to a full merger at this stage, although he said that he was looking at the powers of Welsh Ministers to intervene.

Mark Isherwood: Ildiaf mewn eiliad. Yn ei ddatganiad yr wythnos diwethaf, dywedodd y Gweinidog nad oedd ef yn disgwyl i’r bartneriaeth strategol rhwng Aberystwyth a Bangor i symud ymlaen i uno llawn ar hyn o bryd, er iddo ddweud ei fod yn edrych ar  bwerau Gweinidogion Cymru i ymyrryd.

Lord Elis-Thomas: Could I ask the Welsh Conservatives to be more positive in their attitude towards what is happening in higher education and, particularly within the institutions that have just been mentioned? We do not require meddling oppositions, either. [Laughter.]

Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: A gaf ofyn y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig i fod yn fwy cadarnhaol yn eu hagwedd tuag at yr hyn sy’n digwydd mewn addysg uwch ac, yn enwedig o fewn y sefydliadau sydd newydd gael eu crybwyll? Nid oes angen arnom wrthbleidiau busneslyd, ychwaith. [Chwerthin.]

Mark Isherwood: As my colleague knows, I have discussions with the universities themselves, but I am sworn to confidentiality. Welsh Ministers already have powers under the Education Reform Act 1988 to dissolve higher education corporations in certain circumstances, but these only apply to post-1992 institutions. The older Welsh universities were set up by royal charter and cannot be dissolved by Welsh Ministers. As I said to the Minister last week, can you honestly envisage either of those universities reaching a position where they would need intervention as a last resort, unless funding is withheld from them because of decisions taken here; that is, by him?

Mark Isherwood: Fel y gwŷr fy nghyd-Aelod, byddaf yn cael trafodaethau gyda’r prifysgolion eu hunain, ond yr wyf wedi gwneud addewid y byddaf yn cadw’r wybodaeth honno’n gyfrinachol. Mae gan Weinidogion Cymru bwerau eisoes o dan Ddeddf Diwygio Addysg 1988 i ddiddymu corfforaethau addysg uwch mewn rhai amgylchiadau, ond mae’r rhain, dim ond yn berthnasol i sefydliadau ôl-1992. Sefydlwyd prifysgolion hŷn Cymru gan siarter frenhinol ac ni ellir eu diddymu gan Weinidogion Cymru. Fel y dywedais wrth y Gweinidog yr wythnos diwethaf, a allech ragweld naill un o’r prifysgolion hynny’n cyrraedd sefyllfa lle y byddai angen ymyrraeth fel dewis olaf, oni bai bod cyllid yn cael ei wrthod iddynt oherwydd penderfyniadau a gymerwyd yma; hynny yw, ganddo fe?

His unnecessary meddling with post-1992 higher education institutions such as Glyndŵr University is also unwelcome. He told us last week that he was examining further options for north-east Wales, but north-east Wales does not need him to stick his oar in. As the Glyndŵr University friends group, chaired by the head of Redrow and supported by all major local industries and employers states, it is essential for north-east Wales that Glyndŵr University retains its independence so that it can lead higher education and be responsive to the economic and social needs of the 500,000 population it serves. It added that the university should develop strong structural relationships with local further education colleges, but that this should be co-ordinated through Glyndŵr University. This means working with Yale College—where another of my daughters is a student—and Deeside College to determine and meet the needs of its students and region.

Mae ei fusnesu diangen â sefydliadau addysg uwch ôl-1992 fel Prifysgol Glyndŵr hefyd yn annymunol. Dywedodd wrthym yr wythnos diwethaf ei fod yn archwilio opsiynau pellach ar gyfer gogledd-ddwyrain Cymru, ond nid oes angen ar ogledd-ddwyrain Cymru ei ymyrraeth. Fel y dywed grŵp ffrindiau Prifysgol Glyndŵr, a gadeirir gan bennaeth Redrow ac a gefnogir gan yr holl ddiwydiannau a chyflogwyr lleol mawr, mae’n hanfodol i ogledd-ddwyrain Cymru bod Prifysgol Glyndŵr yn cadw ei annibyniaeth fel y gall arwain addysg uwch ac ymateb i anghenion economaidd a chymdeithasol y boblogaeth o 500,000  mae’n ei gwasanaethu. Ychwanegodd y dylai’r brifysgol ddatblygu perthynas strwythurol gref gyda cholegau addysg bellach lleol, ond y dylai hyn fod yn gydgysylltiedig drwy Brifysgol Glyndŵr. Mae hyn yn golygu gweithio gyda Choleg Iâl—ble mae un arall o fy merched yn fyfyriwr—a Choleg Glannau Dyfrdwy i bennu a diwallu anghenion ei fyfyrwyr a’i ranbarth.

Glyndŵr University was founded in 2008, having grown from colleges serving north-east Wales for more than 120 years. Significant developments have taken place at rapid speed, including the founding of the Catrin Finch performance centre and the centre for creative industries; and it is home to the BBC in north-east Wales, the advanced composite training and development centre in partnership with Airbus UK and Deeside College, and the centre for the child, family and society. It is also a key partner in the North Wales Clinical School and has recently acquired the Racecourse stadium, home to Wrexham football club and Crusaders rugby league club, thereby enhancing university sport and the student experience.

Sefydlwyd Prifysgol Glyndŵr yn 2008, ar ôl tyfu o golegau sydd wedi gwasanaethu gogledd-ddwyrain Cymru am fwy na 120 o flynyddoedd. Mae datblygiadau sylweddol wedi digwydd yn gyflym dros ben, gan gynnwys sefydlu’r ganolfan perfformiad Catrin Finch a’r ganolfan ar gyfer diwydiannau creadigol; ac mae’n gartref i’r BBC yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Cymru, y ganolfan gyfansawdd hyfforddi a datblygu uwch mewn partneriaeth ag Airbus UK a Choleg Glannau Dyfrdwy, a’r ganolfan ar gyfer y plentyn, teulu a chymdeithas. Mae hefyd yn bartner allweddol yn Ysgol Glinigol Gogledd Cymru ac yn ddiweddar, caffaelwyd ar Stadiwm Y Cae Ras, clwb cartref pêl-droed Wrecsam a chlwb rygbi’r gynghrair, Crusaders ac felly’n gwella chwaraeon prifysgol a phrofiad y myfyriwr.

Glyndŵr University has close to 1,500 partnerships in the UK and around the world and, even after recent acquisitions and developments, has no debt. So, back off, Minister: north-east Wales does not need you ‘to examine further options.’ The Minister has hidden behind the fig leaf of the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, which knows full well that its actions are based on his policy of merging universities. The Minister asked HEFCW to provide him with advice on the structure of the higher education sector in Wales. Its response was published in July 2010. However, speaking previously at Cardiff University’s School of City and Regional Planning in May 2010, the Minister said that financial support for universities would depend on the Minister’s objectives being met. Further, in December 2010, the Minister told an Institute of Welsh Affairs conference that the Welsh Government supported the HEFCW corporate strategy and that there would be fewer higher education institutions and fewer vice-chancellors in Wales by 2013. He added that higher education institutions must adapt or die and warned that access to the new fees regime would depend on the willingness of university management to progress swiftly to merger and reconfiguration.

Mae gan Brifysgol Glyndŵr yn agos at 1,500 o bartneriaethau yn y DU a ledled y byd a, hyd yn oed ar ôl caffaeliadau a datblygiadau diweddar, nid oes ganddi ddyled. Felly, ciliwch, Weinidog: nid oes angen ar ogledd-ddwyrain Cymru ichi ‘archwilio opsiynau pellach’. Mae’r Gweinidog wedi cuddio y tu ôl i ddeilen ffigys Cyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru, sy’n gwybod yn iawn fod ei weithredoedd yn seiliedig ar ei bolisi o uno prifysgolion. Gofynnodd y Gweinidog i’r CCAUC am gyngor ar strwythur y sector addysg uwch yng Nghymru. Cyhoeddwyd ei ymateb ym mis Gorffennaf 2010. Fodd bynnag, wrth siarad o’r blaen yn Ysgol Dinas a Chynllunio Rhanbarthol Prifysgol Caerdydd ym mis Mai 2010, dywedodd y Gweinidog y byddai cymorth ariannol ar gyfer prifysgolion yn dibynnu ar amcanion y Gweinidog yn cael eu bodloni. Ymhellach, ym mis Rhagfyr 2010, dywedodd y Gweinidog wrth gynhadledd Sefydliad Materion Cymreig y cefnogodd Llywodraeth Cymru strategaeth gorfforaethol CCAUC ac y byddai llai o is-gangellorion yng Nghymru erbyn 2013. Ychwanegodd fod yn rhaid i sefydliadau addysg uwch addasu neu farw a rhybuddiodd y byddai mynediad i’r drefn ffioedd newydd yn dibynnu ar barodrwydd rheolwyr prifysgol i symud ymlaen yn gyflym at uno ac ad-drefnu.

The Presiding Officer: Will you wind up, please?

Y Llywydd: A wnewch chi ddirwyn i ben, os gwelwch yn dda?

Mark Isherwood: Higher education in Wales needs positive engagement, not top-down state control.  

Mark Isherwood: Mae angen ymgysylltu cadarnhaol ar addysg uwch yng Nghymru, nid rheolaeth o’r brig i’r gwaelod gan y wladwriaeth.

Simon Thomas: Yn gyntaf oll, hoffwn ddiolch i lefarwyr yr wrthbleidiau am drafod â ni natur y cynnig sydd gerbron y Cynulliad heddiw. Hoffwn ddiolch i’r Ceidwadwyr am neilltuo awr o’u hamser ar gyfer trafodaeth y gellir ei chynnal ar y cyd ar y mater pwysig hwn. Wrth gwrs, cefnogaf y cynnig yn llwyr.

Simon Thomas: First, I would like to thank the opposition spokespersons for discussing the nature of the motion before the Assembly today. I also thank the Conservatives for allocating an hour of their time to a discussion that we can have jointly on this important matter. Of coruse, I fully support the motion.

Nid wyf yn anghytuno â rhai o’r sylwadau a wnaed gan David Rees. Mae pwyntiau o bwys yn yr hyn a ddywedodd. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig hefyd ein bod yn ymdrin â’r cynnig ar gefn y datganiad a wnaed gan y Gweinidog yr wythnos diwethaf, er mwyn inni gael cyfle i wyntyllu rhai o’r problemau yr ydym yn eu hwynebu wrth i adroddiad Cyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru gael ei roi ar waith ac wrth i’r Gweinidog symud ymlaen â’i gynlluniau.

I do not disagree with some of the comments made by David Rees; he made some important points in his contribution. However, it is also important that we address this motion on the back of the statement made by the Minister last week, so that we have an opportunity to air some of the problems that we now face as the HEFCW report is implemented and as the Minister progresses his own proposals.

Ni chytunaf â Mark Isherwood o gwbl. Yr wyf yn falch bod gennym Weinidog cenedlaethol sy’n fodlon edrych ar y sector mewn cyd-destun cenedlaethol. Nid wyf yn gweld y sefyllfa hon fel achos o ymyrryd; fe’i gwelaf fel sefyllfa o roi cyfeiriad a dangos arweiniad. Wedi dweud hynny, ni chytunaf yn llwyr â phob peth y mae’r Gweinidog yn ei gynnig. Dyna pam yr wyf yn falch o gael y cyfle i gefnogi’r cynnig sydd gerbron y Cynulliad heddiw.

I do not agree with Mark Isherwood at all. I am pleased that we have a Minister who is willing to look at the sector in a national context. I do not see this as meddling; I see it as providing direction and leadership. Having said that, I do not agree with everything that the Minister proposes. That is why I am pleased to have the opportunity to support the motion before the Assembly today.

Hoffwn ganolbwyntio ar ddau beth yn fras iawn. Yn gyntaf oll, credaf ei bod yn bwysig sylweddoli ei bod yn bryd inni ganolbwyntio ar briod waith prifysgolion, sef gwella sgiliau a chyfleoedd dysgu israddedigion lle bo hynny’n briodol. Yn ogystal, yng nghyd-destun economaidd Cymru, mae’n bwysig bod prifysgolion yn gwella eu gallu i chwilio am ffynonellau ariannol ymchwil, yn enwedig o’r cynghorau cyllido, lle mae Cymru wedi dioddef diffyg hanesyddol. Yr ydym braidd yn cael cyfran Barnett, fel petai, o’r arian sydd ar gael i’r cynghorau cyllido. Gyda llaw, mae’n bosibl y byddwn hefyd yn colli’r cyfle i gael cyfran o’r ffynonellau ariannu newydd a fydd yn deillio o Ewrop. Yr wythnos diwethaf, cyhoeddwyd adroddiad gan y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, sef ‘Horizon 2020’, sy’n canolbwyntio ar addysg uwch drwy’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Mae’r adroddiad hwnnw’n dangos y cyfleodd di-ri sydd ar gael i brifysgolion Cymru uno a chydweithio â gwaith ymchwil sy’n cael ei wneud yn Ewrop.

I would like to concentrate on two issues. First of all, it is important that we realise that it is now time to concentrate on the main task of universities, which is to improve the skills of undergraduates and their learning opportunities, where appropriate. Importantly, in the Welsh economic context, universities must improve their capacity to find alternative research funding sources, particularly in the funding councils, where there has been a historical deficit in Wales. We are not even getting the Barnett share, as it were, of the money available to the funding councils. Furthermore, we could well miss out on the opportunity to take advantage of the new sources of funding that are in the pipeline in a European context. Last week, the European Commission published its ‘Horizon 2020’ report, which focuses on higher education throughout the European Union. This report sets out the numerous opportunities for universities in Wales to join and collaborate on research work undertaken in Europe.

David Rees: Do you agree, therefore, that proposals to collaborate on research, particularly between Swansea, Bangor, Cardiff and Aberystwyth, fit into European structural funds proposals relating to the 2020 vision, because they are going to focus more on collaborative work and projects?

David Rees: A ydych yn cytuno, felly, bod cynigion i gydweithredu ar ymchwil, yn enwedig rhwng Abertawe, Bangor, Caerdydd ac Aberystwyth, yn ffitio i mewn i gynigion y cronfeydd strwythurol Ewropeaidd sy’n ymwneud â’r weledigaeth 2020, oherwydd maent yn mynd i ganolbwyntio mwy ar brosiectau a gwaith ar y cyd?

Simon Thomas: I agree completely with David Rees, and that brings me on to my next point very well.

Simon Thomas: Cytunaf yn llwyr â David Rees, a daw hynny â mi at fy mhwynt nesaf yn dda iawn.

Yr ail bwynt yr oeddwn am ei wneud oedd bod cydweithio ymysg ein prifysgolion eisoes ar y gweill, yn enwedig rhwng Aberystwyth a Bangor, fel y soniodd Angela Burns. Yr wyf yn falch, felly, fod y Gweinidog wedi datgan nad oes angen mynd ymhellach â chynlluniau i uno’r sefydliadau hyn. Mae’r ddau sefydliad hwn wedi sefydlu pum maes ymchwil ar y cyd. Yn wir, maent yn fwy na meysydd ymchwil—maent yn sefydliadau neu ganolfannau ymchwil. Byddant yn ymchwilio i faterion y maent yn arbenigo ynddynt, fel gwyddoniaeth forol ym Mangor a materion cefn gwlad yn Aberystwyth, mewn perthynas â Sefydliad y Gwyddorau Biolegol, Amgylcheddol a Gwledig. Yn wir, bydd un o’r canolfannau hyn yn canolbwyntio ar astudiaethau modern cynnar a chanol oesol. Fel rhywun a gafodd radd yn y celfyddydau, mae’n braf gen i weld y celfyddydau’n cael priod le o ran ymchwil, yn ogystal â phynciau gwyddoniaeth, technoleg, peirianneg a mathemateg yr ydym yn tueddu i ganolbwyntio arnynt yma. Er bod y canolfannau hyn, a’r gwaith ymchwil sy’n cael ei wneud ar y cyd rhwng Aberystwyth a Bangor, wedi cael arian cychwynnol o ryw £11 miliwn gan Gyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru, maent eisoes wedi cael £13.5 miliwn o arian ychwanegol drwy wneud ceisiadau am ffynonellau eraill o gyllid. Mae hon yn enghraifft dda, felly, o lwyddiant yn cael ei wireddu drwy gydweithio heb yr angen i uno.

My second point is that this collaboration is already happening in our universities, particularly between Aberystwyth and Bangor, as Angela Burns mentioned. I am pleased, therefore, that the Minister has stated that there is no need to go further with the merger of these two institutions. They have established five joint areas of research. Indeed, they go beyond areas of research—they are research institutes or centres to all intents and purposes. They will conduct research in areas on which they already specialise, such as marine biology in Bangor, and rural affairs in relation to the Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences. Indeed, one of these centres will focus on medieval and early modern studies. As an arts graduate, I am pleased to see the humanities being given their proper place in research, alongside the subjects of science, technology, engineering and mathematics, which we tend to concentrate on in discussing these issues. Even though these centres, and the joint research between Bangor and Aberystwyth, have seen initial funding of some £11 million from HEFCW, they have already generated £13.5 million in additional funding from alternative sources. This is a good example, therefore, of success being achieved through collaboration, where there is no need for merger.

Yng nghyd-destun Cymru, mae’r sefyllfa hon yn ein gadael ni ag un broblem i’w hwynebu, sef yr anghytuno sy’n bodoli rhwng Prifysgol Morgannwg, Prifysgol Fetropolitan Caerdydd a Phrifysgol Casnewydd. Synhwyraf fod y Gweinidog yn llacio’r pwysau sydd ar y sefydliadau hyn i uno mewn modd gorfodol. Croesawaf y datblygiad hwnnw. Drwy wneud hyn, efallai ei fod yn defnyddio’r sgiliau a enillodd y wobr iddo neithiwr. Pe bai gennym gyfle i ddangos y posibiliadau sydd ar gael yn ne-ddwyrain Cymru—er enghraifft, yr hyn y byddai prifysgol newydd yn gallu ei chreu—efallai y byddem yn gallu goresgyn rhai o’r problemau, fel ego, a’r anawsterau ymarferol sy’n wynebu’r tri sefydliad ar hyn o bryd. Mawr obeithiaf felly y gwelwn fwy o negeseuon cadarnhaol yn dod o’r Llywodraeth i annog mwy o gydweithio ac i annog y fargen orau i Gymru, sef cael mwy o arian i gefnogi’n meysydd ymchwil.  

In a Welsh context, we are left with one problem to tackle, which is the disagreement that exists between Glamorgan, Cardiff metropolitan and Newport universities. I sense that the Minister is starting to take his foot off the pedal of an enforced merger. I welcome that development. In doing this, perhaps he is again demonstrating the skills that won him the award last night. If we had an opportunity to show what the possibilities are in south-east Wales—for example, what an entirely new university could achieve—perhaps we could overcome some of the problems, such as ego, and the practical difficulties faced by the three institutions at the moment. I very much hope, therefore, that we will see more positive messages emerging from the Government to encourage more collaboration and to ensure the best deal for Wales, which is to get more money to support our research fields.

2.45 p.m.

Mohammad Asghar: According to the Times Higher Education world university rankings 2011-12, not a single Welsh university falls within the world’s top 200. That is staggering news. Welsh higher education institutions should be provided with the correct support and framework to flourish in global rankings. Our universities are of a similar size to the very best American institutions, such as Harvard, Yale, Stanford and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. However, those American universities place considerably greater emphasis on postgraduate students, allowing them to become centres of research excellence. Presently, Welsh universities have fewer four-star research centres than England and Scotland do, and fewer three-star research centres than England, Scotland and Northern Ireland do. While we perform very well in a number of areas, our research performance has not improved since 2001. More high-quality research at postgraduate level will improve the nation’s skills base, which experts predict will allow many to become more adept at exploring business opportunities and becoming successful entrepreneurs. Graduates often possess great talent and skills, which can prove invaluable to a nation’s economy. Sadly, in Wales, a brain drain exists, whereby we generate more graduates than we recruit. That is a fact, Minister. To change this, and to ensure that the nation benefits fully from our HE institutions, the sector must be encouraged to increase links and engagement with the private sector, which, in turn, could stimulate opportunities for graduates to utilise their talents in Wales. Approximately 45 per cent of young graduates in Wales work in the public sector, compared to about 15 per cent in London. More must be done to provide graduates with the opportunities that they require in Wales, ensuring that we retain our highly qualified individuals.

Mohammad Asghar: Yn ôl rhestr prifysgolion y byd ar gyfer 2011-12 yn y Times Higher Education, nid oes yr un brifysgol yng Nghymru ymhlith 200 gorau’r byd. Mae hynny’n newyddion syfrdanol. Dylai sefydliadau addysg uwch yng Nghymru gael y gefnogaeth a’r fframwaith cywir i ffynnu mewn rhestrau byd-eang. Mae ein prifysgolion yn faint tebyg i’r sefydliadau Americanaidd gorau, fel  Harvard, Yale, Stanford a’r Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Fodd bynnag, mae’r prifysgolion Americanaidd hynny yn rhoi llawer mwy o bwyslais ar fyfyrwyr ôl-raddedig, gan eu galluogi i ddod yn ganolfannau rhagoriaeth ymchwil. Ar hyn o bryd, mae gan brifysgolion Cymru llai o ganolfannau ymchwil pedair seren na Lloegr a’r Alban, ac mae ganddi lai o ganolfannau ymchwil tair seren na Lloegr, yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon. Er ein bod yn perfformio’n dda iawn mewn nifer o feysydd, nid yw ein perfformiad ymchwil wedi gwella ers 2001. Bydd mwy o ymchwil o ansawdd uchel ar lefel ôl-radd yn gwella sylfaen sgiliau’r genedl, ac mae arbenigwyr yn darogan y bydd hynny’n caniatáu llawer o bobl i ddod yn fwy medrus wrth archwilio cyfleoedd busnes a dod yn entrepreneuriaid llwyddiannus. Mae graddedigion yn aml yn meddu ar dalent a sgiliau gwych, a all fod yn amhrisiadwy i economi cenedl. Yn anffodus, yng Nghymru, mae dawn yn cael ei draenio ymaith, lle’r ydym yn cynhyrchu mwy o raddedigion nag yr ydym yn eu recriwtio. Mae hynny’n ffaith, Weinidog. I newid hyn a sicrhau bod y genedl yn elwa yn llawn ar ein sefydliadau addysg uwch, mae’n rhaid annog y sector i gynyddu cysylltiadau ac ymgysylltu â’r sector preifat, a allai, yn ei dro, ysgogi cyfleoedd i raddedigion ddefnyddio eu doniau yng Nghymru. Mae tua 45 y cant o raddedigion ifanc yng Nghymru yn gweithio yn y sector cyhoeddus, o’i gymharu â thua 15 y cant yn Llundain. Mae’n rhaid gwneud mwy i gynnig i raddedigion y cyfleoedd y mae eu hangen arnynt yng Nghymru, gan sicrhau ein bod yn cadw unigolion â chymwysterau da.

Higher education in Wales is at a crossroads, and we know that the forced merger of institutions is high on the Minister’s agenda. For example, the Minister has said that he is minded to accept a recommendation from the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales to merge the University of Glamorgan and Newport and Cardiff Metropolitan universities. On this side of the Chamber, we want the Welsh Government to prioritise collaboration, not to force mergers upon these institutions. Collaboration between universities will ensure the best use of resources, but compelling mergers can damage morale and prove unpopular with students, lecturers and university officials. I note that Bangor and Aberystwyth universities have announced further collaborative arrangements this morning. That is the sort of voluntary direction universities should be heading towards, rather than us having forced mergers.

Mae addysg uwch yng Nghymru ar groesffordd, a gwyddom fod uno sefydliadau yn orfodol fry ar agenda’r Gweinidog. Er enghraifft, mae’r Gweinidog wedi dweud ei fod yn bwriadu derbyn argymhelliad gan Gyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru i uno Prifysgol Morgannwg a phrifysgolion Casnewydd a Metropolitan Caerdydd. Ar yr ochr hon i’r Siambr, yr ydym am i Lywodraeth Cymru flaenoriaethu cydweithio, nid gorfodi’r sefydliadau hyn i uno. Bydd cydweithio rhwng prifysgolion yn sicrhau’r defnydd gorau o adnoddau, ond gall cymell uno niweidio morâl a bod yn gam amhoblogaidd gyda myfyrwyr, darlithwyr a swyddogion y brifysgol. Nodaf fod prifysgolion Bangor ac Aberystwyth wedi cyhoeddi trefniadau cydweithredol pellach y bore yma. Dyna’r math o gyfeiriad gwirfoddol y dylai prifysgolion fod yn anelu tuag ato, yn hytrach nag uno gorfodol.

Wales’s higher education policy must be geared towards strengthening teaching standards, improving university performance, and ensuring that our institutions are research-based centres of excellence. An ambitious, collaborative approach is required moving forward, rather than prescriptive central rules being dictated from the centre.

Rhaid i bolisi addysg uwch Cymru anelu at gryfhau safonau addysgu, gwella perfformiad y brifysgol, a sicrhau bod ein sefydliadau yn ganolfannau o ragoriaeth sy’n seiliedig ar ymchwil. Dull uchelgeisiol a chydweithredol sydd ei angen wrth symud ymlaen yn hytrach na rheolau canolog rhagnodol sy’n cael eu pennu o’r canol.

David Rees: You just pointed out that we should be looking at research-intensive institutions and not forced mergers. However, if an institution is failing to focus its targets, do you agree that it is necessary to take action? Very often, it is not the staff or students, but the officials who are causing the problem.

David Rees: Yr ydych newydd dynnu sylw at y ffaith y dylem fod yn edrych ar sefydliadau lle mae llawer o ymchwil ac nid uno wedi ei orfodi. Fodd bynnag, os yw sefydliad yn methu canolbwyntio ar ei dargedau, a gytunwch ei bod yn angenrheidiol i weithredu? Yn aml iawn, nid y staff neu’r myfyrwyr sy’n achosi’r broblem, ond y swyddogion.

Mohammad Asghar: I hope that the Presiding Officer will give me an extra 30 seconds. [Laughter.] I say to my honourable friend that we are living in the modern world; you should not live in the past. Out of the entire world, we are not among the top 200. That is a fact. What we are now saying is that we do not bank on the students who are educated here. Did you know that the foreign Minister of Iraq was educated at Cardiff? Did you know that the Pakistan ambassador was educated at Cardiff? We have produced talented people. I was educated in Newport. Basically, we have created a lot of talent around the world, but we have not capitalised on that. Only five years ago, it was mentioned that we were going to close some of the colleges in Newport. As a matter of fact, I opposed that—Lord German was there, and I opposed the proposal. What happened? At that time, there were only hundreds of foreign students in Wales. Thank God, there are thousands now. We should create institutions that are world standard, and this is the time for us to do it, Minister.

Mohammad Asghar: Yr wyf yn gobeithio y bydd y Llywydd yn rhoi 30 eiliad ychwanegol i mi. [Chwerthin.] Yr wyf yn dweud wrth fy ffrind anrhydeddus ein bod yn byw yn y byd modern; ni ddylech fod yn byw yn y gorffennol. O’r holl fyd, nid ydym yn ymhlith y 200 uchaf. Mae hynny’n ffaith. Yr hyn yr ydym yn ei ddweud yn awr yw nad ydym yn bancio ar y myfyrwyr sy’n cael eu haddysgu yma. A wyddech chi yr addysgwyd Gweinidog tramor Irac yng Nghaerdydd? A wyddech chi yr addysgwyd llysgennad Pacistan yng Nghaerdydd? Yr ydym wedi cynhyrchu pobl dalentog. Cefais fy addysgu yng Nghasnewydd. Yn y bôn, yr ydym wedi creu llawer o dalent o gwmpas y byd, ond nid ydym wedi manteisio ar hynny. Dim ond pum mlynedd yn ôl, bu sôn y byddem yn cau rhai o’r colegau yng Nghasnewydd. A dweud y gwir, gwrthwynebais hynny—yr oedd yr Arglwydd German yno, a gwrthwynebais y cynnig. Beth ddigwyddodd? Ar y pryd, dim ond cannoedd o fyfyrwyr tramor oedd yng Nghymru. Diolch i Dduw, mae miloedd yn awr. Dylem greu sefydliadau sydd o safon ryngwladol, a dyma’r amser i ni wneud hynny, Weinidog.

Aled Roberts: I, too, thank the Welsh Conservatives for giving us the opportunity to debate this issue. I would also acknowledge the fact that we have had the opportunity, as opposition spokespersons, to discuss the nature of the motion that was tabled.

Aled Roberts: Yr wyf fi, hefyd, yn diolch i’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig am roi’r cyfle i ni drafod y mater hwn. Yr wyf hefyd yn cydnabod y ffaith ein bod wedi cael y cyfle, fel llefarwyr y gwrthbleidiau, i drafod natur y cynnig a gyflwynwyd.

I think that the point that we are reaching is that, while taking note of the Minister’s statement last week and acknowledging that he did not accept all of HEFCW’s recommendations in moving forward—and, particularly with regard to north-east Wales, that statement was welcomed—there is a feeling that collaboration per se should be based on the premise that it leads to better outcomes for undergraduates. Last week, Minister, you perhaps questioned my position when I said that the evidence, as far as I can see from the documentation that I have seen from HEFCW and, certainly, from the written statement that you issued, has not yet convinced me that having a smaller number of larger institutions will bring about the more effective HE sector in Wales that I am sure that all of us across this Chamber would like to see.

Credaf mai’r pwynt yr ydym yn ei gyrraedd yw, gan gymryd sylw o ddatganiad y Gweinidog yr wythnos diwethaf a chydnabod na dderbyniodd bob un o argymhellion y cyngor cyllido wrth symud ymlaen—a chroesawyd y datganiad hwnnw, yn enwedig yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Cymru—fod yna deimlad y dylai cydweithio fel y cyfryw ddigwydd ar y sail ei fod yn arwain at ganlyniadau gwell i israddedigion. Yr wythnos diwethaf, Weinidog, fe wnaethoch chi efallai gwestiynu fy safbwynt pan ddywedais fod y dystiolaeth, cyn belled ag y gallaf i weld o’r ddogfennaeth a welais gan y cyngor cyllido ac, yn sicr, o’r datganiad ysgrifenedig a gyhoeddwyd gennych, heb fy argyhoeddi eto y bydd cael nifer is o sefydliadau mwy yn arwain at y sector addysg uwch mwy effeithiol yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai pob un ohonom ar draws y Siambr hon yn hoffi ei weld yng Nghymru.

It was also noticeable that, with regard to the 400 responses to the HEFCW consultation that you talked about last week, for quite a few of them, while they were generally supportive of some of the merger proposals, that support was conditional on certain issues. The University and College Union’s support in particular was conditional on there being no compulsory redundancies in the sector, yet, when the question was asked last week about whether mergers would proceed on the basis of there being no compulsory redundancies, it was noticeable that no such assurance was given.

Yr oedd hefyd yn amlwg, mewn perthynas â’r 400 ymateb i ymgynghoriad y cyngor cyllido yr oeddech yn sôn amdano’r wythnos diwethaf, yn achos cryn dipyn ohonynt, er bod cefnogaeth gyffredinol i rai o’r cynigion uno, yr oedd yn amodol ar rai materion. Mae cefnogaeth yr Undeb Prifysgolion a Cholegau yn arbennig yn amodol ar ddim diswyddiadau gorfodol yn y sector, ac eto, pan ofynnwyd yr wythnos diwethaf a fyddai uno yn bwrw rhagddo ar y sail na fyddai unrhyw ddiswyddiadau gorfodol, yr oedd yn amlwg na roddwyd sicrwydd o’r fath.

My concern is that students themselves should be hugely important in the formation of HE policy. After all, it is they who will choose which institution to attend. While acknowledging the point that David Rees made, that the QAA standards indicate that the vast majority of Welsh institutions’ standards are good, we also need to acknowledge that the responses to the national student survey from Welsh students are far more positive than those from UK students as a whole. It is therefore worth noting that, as far as the merger of institutions in south-east Wales is concerned, 82 per cent of students at Cardiff Metropolitan University felt that their student experience would be adversely affected by the merger proposal, and 95 per cent believed that any merger would adversely affect their studies.

I mi, dylai myfyrwyr eu hunain fod yn hynod o bwysig wrth ffurfio polisi addysg uwch. Wedi’r cyfan, nhw fydd yn dewis pa sefydliad fyddant yn mynd iddo. Wrth gydnabod y pwynt a wnaeth David Rees, sef bod y safonau ASA yn dangos bod safonau mwyafrif helaeth y sefydliadau Cymreig yn dda, mae angen cydnabod hefyd fod yr ymatebion gan fyfyrwyr Cymru i’r arolwg myfyrwyr cenedlaethol yn llawer mwy cadarnhaol na’r rhai gan fyfyrwyr y DU yn ei chyfanrwydd. Felly, mae’n werth nodi, cyn belled ag y bo uno sefydliadau yn ne-ddwyrain Cymru yn y cwestiwn, fod 82 y cant o fyfyrwyr ym Mhrifysgol Metropolitan Caerdydd yn teimlo y byddai eu profiad fel myfyrwyr yn cael ei effeithio’n andwyol gan y cynnig i uno, a bod 95 y cant yn credu y byddai unrhyw uno yn cael effaith niweidiol ar eu hastudiaethau.

As I have stated, I welcome the fact that the Minister has reconsidered some of HEFCW’s recommendations. HEFCW has not convinced me, given the evidence that I have seen, that it is putting these proposals forward on the basis of strong evidence. It is also worth noting that, when Simon Thomas asked him on 12 October whether HEFCW could be considered to be independent of Government, the Minister made it perfectly clear that he could not confirm that that was the case because of the nature of the conversations that have taken place between his department and HEFCW. I am therefore concerned that this institution should not endorse a direction that has been taken by the Minister that is not clearly supported by evidence. It is quite clear that Welsh HE institutions need to be encouraged to do better. We feel that that improvement could be brought about through greater collaboration rather than forced mergers. The Minister might well say that the institutions should adapt, but we need to recognise that, given the uncertainty that has been created, the people whom we depend upon to improve the research experience of our students may well decide to go elsewhere.

Fel yr wyf wedi dweud, yr wyf yn croesawu’r ffaith bod y Gweinidog wedi ailystyried rhai o argymhellion y cyngor cyllido. Nid yw’r cyngor cyllido wedi fy argyhoeddi, o ystyried y dystiolaeth yr wyf wedi’i gweld, ei fod yn cyflwyno’r cynigion hyn ar sail tystiolaeth gref. Mae hefyd yn werth nodi, pan ofynnodd Simon Thomas iddo ar 12 Hydref a ellid ystyried y cyngor cyllido yn annibynnol ar y Llywodraeth, y gwnaeth y Gweinidog yn gwbl glir na allai gadarnhau mai dyna oedd yr achos oherwydd natur y sgyrsiau sydd wedi cael eu cynnal rhwng ei adran a’r cyngor cyllido. Yr wyf, felly, yn bryderus na ddylai’r sefydliad hwn gymeradwyo cyfeiriad y mae’r Gweinidog yn ei ddilyn heb dystiolaeth glir i’w gefnogi. Mae’n eithaf amlwg bod angen annog sefydliadau addysg uwch Cymru i wneud yn well. Yr ydym yn teimlo y gellid sicrhau’r gwelliant hwnnw drwy fwy o gydweithio yn hytrach nag uno gorfodol. Efallai’n wir y bydd y Gweinidog yn dweud y dylai’r sefydliadau addasu, ond mae angen i ni gydnabod, o ystyried yr ansicrwydd sydd wedi cael ei greu, efallai y bydd y bobl yr ydym yn dibynnu arnynt i wella profiad ymchwil ein myfyrwyr yn penderfynu mynd i rywle arall.

Minister, I, like Simon Thomas, accept that you need to give us a national lead. I also accept that, where institutions are not responding to demands for change, it is the Minster’s responsibility to ensure that improvement takes place. I ask, however, that you reconsider the way that we are going forward at the moment, Minister, because I, for one, am not convinced that the evidence is there to suggest that merger will necessarily bring about the improvement that you are seeking.

Weinidog, yr wyf i, fel Simon Thomas, yn derbyn bod angen i chi roi arweiniad cenedlaethol ni. Yr wyf hefyd yn derbyn, lle nad yw sefydliadau’n ymateb i alwadau am newid, mai cyfrifoldeb y Gweinidog yw sicrhau bod gwelliant yn digwydd. Gofynnaf, fodd bynnag, ichi ailystyried y ffordd yr ydym yn mynd ymlaen ar hyn o bryd, Weinidog, oherwydd nid wyf i, o leiaf, yn argyhoeddedig bod gennym dystiolaeth sy’n awgrymu y bydd uno o reidrwydd yn sicrhau’r gwelliant yr ydych yn chwilio amdano.

Antoinette Sandbach: I wish to support and endorse what Angela Burns has said in this debate and pick up on the points made about postgraduate development. As Mohammad Asghar has outlined, Wales has fewer four and three-star research centres than England and Scotland does, although it has more one and two-star research centres than those places. It is vital that Wales improves its research performance, which has not improved since 2001. There are substantial opportunities, and the head of the European Commission Office in Wales, Andy Klom, has highlighted that Wales is not getting its fair share of Horizon 2020 funding for research and that it could do better in applying for that funding. It is vital that that stream of funding is taken up and looked at in order to encourage the fantastic research that is taking place in universities such as Bangor University.

Antoinette Sandbach: Hoffwn gefnogi ac ategu’r hyn a ddywedodd Angela Burns yn y ddadl hon a chynnig sylwadau ar y pwyntiau a wnaed am ddatblygiad myfyrwyr ôl-raddedig. Fel yr amlinellodd Mohammad Asghar, mae gan Gymru lai o ganolfannau ymchwil pedair a thair seren na Lloegr a’r Alban, er bod ganddi fwy o ganolfannau ymchwil un a dwy seren na’r lleoedd hynny. Mae’n hanfodol bod Cymru yn gwella ei pherfformiad mewn ymchwil, sydd heb wella ers 2001. Mae cyfleoedd sylweddol ar gael, ac mae pennaeth Swyddfa’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd yng Nghymru, Andy Klom, wedi amlygu nad yw Cymru yn cael ei chyfran deg o arian Horizon 2020 ar gyfer ymchwil ac y gallai wneud yn well wrth ymgeisio am y cyllid hwnnw. Mae’n hanfodol bod y ffrwd ariannu yn cael ei defnyddio a’i hystyried er mwyn annog yr ymchwil gwych sy’n digwydd mewn prifysgolion fel Prifysgol Bangor.

The Minister has already outlined his approach to higher education institutions, which, in effect, amounts to ‘adapt or die’. He has warned that their future funding and access to the new fees regime will depend on the willingness of university management to progress swiftly to merger. As is clear from many of the submissions, forced merger is not an acceptable way to proceed. The language used by the Minister for education is threatening. It could be inferred that he is, in effect, holding a sword of Damocles above the heads of university vice-chancellors, in that, if they do not follow the merger direction, their funding will suffer.

Mae’r Gweinidog eisoes wedi amlinellu ei ymagwedd at sefydliadau addysg uwch, sydd, i bob pwrpas, yn cyfateb i ‘addaswch neu fe drengwch’. Mae wedi rhybuddio y bydd eu cyllid yn y dyfodol a mynediad i’r drefn ffïoedd newydd yn dibynnu ar barodrwydd rheolwyr prifysgolion i symud ymlaen yn gyflym i uno. Fel sy’n amlwg o nifer o’r cyflwyniadau, nid yw uno gorfodol yn ffordd dderbyniol i symud ymlaen. Mae’r iaith a ddefnyddir gan y Gweinidog dros addysg yn fygythiol. Gellid casglu ei fod, mewn gwirionedd, yn dal cleddyf Damocles uwchben pennau is-gangellorion y prifysgolion, ac os nad ydynt yn dilyn y trywydd o uno, bydd eu cyllid yn dioddef.

We are told by HEFCW, I believe, that some of the institutions in question are either not financially viable or will become so and that this is a reason to consider mergers and takeovers. The Welsh Conservatives and Angela Burns have received representations from many universities that contradict that view. Both Glyndŵr and Cardiff Metropolitan universities have targeted growth strategies and ambitious plans for the development of existing and additional revenue streams. The University of Wales, Newport is unashamed of its community-focused agenda. While recognising that it needs support, it believes that it can thrive within its ambit. The charter universities need to look at changing how they do some of their business and they also need to review their reinvestment strategies. However, again, they are sound. HEFCW recognises this, and that is my point. None may be gold plated, but what is these days? Most certainly, none are on their knees. Although the Minister made the statement in November, it may cause some ripples in student applications when applicants sit down to fill out their UCAS forms.

Mae’r cyngor cyllido yn dweud wrthym, yr wyf yn credu, fod rhai o’r sefydliadau dan sylw naill ai ddim yn ariannol hyfyw neu y byddant yn y cyflwr hwnnw, a bod hyn yn rheswm i ystyried uno a chymryd sefydliad drosodd. Mae’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ac Angela Burns wedi cael sylwadau gan lawer o brifysgolion sy’n gwrthddweud y farn honno. Mae gan brifysgolion Glyndŵr a Metropolitan Caerdydd strategaethau twf wedi’u targedu a chynlluniau uchelgeisiol ar gyfer datblygu ffrydiau refeniw presennol ac ychwanegol. Mae Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd yn ddiedifar ynghylch ei  hagenda sy’n canolbwyntio ar y gymuned. Wrth iddi gydnabod bod angen cymorth, mae’n credu y gall ffynnu y tu mewn i’w chwmpas gwaith. Mae angen i’r prifysgolion siarter ystyried newid sut y maent yn gwneud rhywfaint o’u busnes ac mae angen iddynt adolygu eu strategaethau ailfuddsoddi hefyd. Fodd bynnag, unwaith eto, maent yn gadarn. Mae’r cyngor cyllido yn cydnabod hyn, a dyna yw fy mhwynt. Efallai nad oes yr un ohonynt yn euraid, ond beth sydd bellach? Yn bendant, nid yw’r un ohonynt ar ei gliniau. Er i’r Gweinidog wneud datganiad ym mis Tachwedd, gallai hyn achosi rhai crychdonnau o ran ceisiadau myfyrwyr pan fydd ymgeiswyr yn llenwi eu ffurflenni UCAS.

3.00 p.m.

Students will want to apply to universities in which they will have confidence that their degree will be valid in two years’ time. Minister, I would be interested to understand what your view is on what might be seen as small or middle-sized universities whose individual academic schools are on a par with any large UK university.

Bydd myfyrwyr eisiau gwneud cais i brifysgolion a fydd yn rhoi hyder iddynt y bydd eu gradd yn ddilys ymhen dwy flynedd. Weinidog, byddai gennyf ddiddordeb i ddeall beth yw eich barn ar y prifysgolion y gellid eu hystyried yn rhai bach neu ganolig eu maint sydd ag ysgolion academaidd unigol cystal ag unrhyw brifysgol fawr yn y DU.

I emphasise the need for any voluntary merger or deep collaboration that is institution-wide rather than project-based to have a clear and mutually agreed vision, a goal and a sense of the road ahead that all will be prepared to sign up to. Benefits should be clearly identified and costed so that all partners can move forward with clarity. It is essential that the close community ties that some of our universities have are maintained and built upon, which could be seen as a challenge if the partners to the merger are in distant geographical places.

Pwysleisiaf yr angen i unrhyw uno gwirfoddol neu gydweithredu dwfn sydd ledled sefydliad, yn hytrach nag ar sail prosiect, feddu ar weledigaeth glir a gytunwyd ar y cyd, a nod ac ymdeimlad o’r ffordd ymlaen y bydd pawb yn barod i gytuno ag ef. Dylid nodi a chostio buddion yn glir fel y gall pob partner symud ymlaen gydag eglurder. Mae’n hanfodol bod y cysylltiadau cymunedol agos sydd gan rai o’n prifysgolion yn cael eu cynnal a’u datblygu, a allai gael ei weld fel her petai’r partneriaid yn yr uno ar wasgar yn ddaearyddol.

We should also bear in mind the needs of part-time students, especially as a significant proportion of part-time students are also first-time students coming into higher education through diverse routes, and whose work or family commitments mean that they need to continue their part-time education in an easily accessible location.

Dylem hefyd gofio anghenion myfyrwyr rhan amser, yn enwedig gan fod cyfran sylweddol o fyfyrwyr rhan amser hefyd yn fyfyrwyr am y tro cyntaf, yn dod i addysg uwch drwy lwybrau amrywiol, ac y mae eu gwaith neu ymrwymiadau teuluol yn golygu bod angen iddynt barhau eu haddysg ran amser mewn lleoliad hygyrch.

The Minister for Education and Skills (Leighton Andrews): I will start by declaring an interest as an honorary professor at Cardiff University.

Y Gweinidog Addysg a Sgiliau (Leighton Andrews): Dechreuaf drwy ddatgan buddiant fel athro er anrhydedd ym Mhrifysgol Caerdydd.

I do not know whether the Welsh Conservatives thought that this motion would be controversial. If so, I must disappoint them. Broadly, this motion supports the policies that this Government is already taking forward in relation to higher education in Wales, therefore, we will vote in favour of it.

Nid wyf yn gwybod a oedd y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn meddwl y byddai’r cynnig hwn yn ddadleuol. Os felly, mae’n rhaid i mi eu siomi. Yn fras, mae’r cynnig hwn yn cefnogi’r polisïau mae’r Llywodraeth hon eisoes yn bwrw ymlaen ag hwy mewn perthynas ag addysg uwch yng Nghymru, felly, byddwn yn pleidleisio o’i blaid.

The Welsh Government’s higher education policy is already aligned with the strengthening of teaching standards and improving graduate outcomes. A high-quality student experience is a fundamental principle of our strategy for higher education in Wales for our future. My colleague the Member for Aberavon spelt out in detail the achievements of higher education institutions in Wales, and the real challenges before them. As he said, graduate outcomes are also critical and Wales has been at the forefront of graduate employability initiatives. Our successful graduate work placement programme, GO Wales, has helped over 3,500 people. My colleague the Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science also funds the academic expertise for business programme, which again places graduates into Welsh businesses to great success. Our new Jobs Growth Wales programme, which is scheduled to start in April 2012 following a pilot scheme this autumn, will add value to GO Wales by extending work experience opportunities for unemployed graduates.

Mae polisi addysg uwch Llywodraeth Cymru eisoes yn alinio â chryfhau safonau addysgu a gwella canlyniadau graddedigion. Mae profiad myfyrwyr o ansawdd uchel yn egwyddor sylfaenol yn ein strategaeth ar gyfer addysg uwch yng Nghymru ar gyfer ein dyfodol. Manylodd fy nghydweithiwr yr Aelod dros Aberafan ar gyflawniadau sefydliadau addysg uwch yng Nghymru a’r heriau gwirioneddol ger eu bron. Fel y dywedodd, mae canlyniadau graddedigion hefyd yn allweddol ac y mae Cymru wedi bod ar flaen y gad o ran mentrau cyflogadwyedd graddedigion. Mae ein rhaglen lwyddiannus o leoliadau gwaith i raddedigion, GO Wales, wedi helpu mwy na 3,500 o bobl. Mae fy nghydweithiwr, y Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth hefyd yn ariannu’r rhaglen arbenigedd academaidd i fusnes, sydd unwaith eto yn gosod graddedigion mewn busnesau yng Nghymru yn dra llwyddiannus. Bydd ein rhaglen Twf Swyddi Cymru newydd, sydd i ddechrau ym mis Ebrill 2012 yn dilyn cynllun peilot yr hydref hwn, yn ychwanegu gwerth at GO Wales drwy ymestyn cyfleoedd profiad gwaith i raddedigion di-waith.

I agree that higher education institutions must be centres for postgraduate and research excellence. We already have some truly world-class research teams, but we do not have enough. The Plaid Cymru spokesperson referred to the inadequate share of funding that we receive from the research councils; I agree with him, and I have recently met with the research councils. I also recently met with vice-chancellors and chairs of governing bodies in higher education to discuss how to improve our research excellence. My officials are working with colleagues from the business department on a new science policy designed to promote research excellence in the STEM subjects in particular. I welcome the strategic alliance signed today by Bangor and Aberystwyth universities.

Yr wyf yn cytuno bod yn rhaid i sefydliadau addysg uwch fod yn ganolfannau rhagoriaeth ôl-raddedig ac ymchwil. Mae gennym eisoes rai timau ymchwil sy’n wirioneddol gyda’r gorau yn y byd, ond nid oes gennym ddigon. Cyfeiriodd llefarydd Plaid Cymru at y gyfran annigonol o gyllid a dderbyniwn gan y cynghorau ymchwil; yr wyf yn cytuno ag ef, ac yr wyf wedi cyfarfod yn ddiweddar â’r cynghorau ymchwil. Cefais gyfarfod yn ddiweddar gydag is-gangellorion a chadeiryddion cyrff llywodraethol addysg uwch er mwyn trafod sut i wella ein rhagoriaeth ymchwil. Mae fy swyddogion yn gweithio gyda chydweithwyr o’r adran fusnes ar bolisi gwyddoniaeth newydd wedi’i gynllunio i hyrwyddo rhagoriaeth ymchwil yn y pynciau STEM yn arbennig. Croesawaf y gynghrair strategol a lofnodwyd heddiw gan brifysgolion Bangor ac Aberystwyth.

In relation to point c in the motion, collaboration is important and is a central driver for change where it can offer proven practical benefits. Of course, we prefer voluntary collaboration to forced mergers, and that is what we will be seeking to encourage. However, we also believe in planning our HE provision, as the One Wales Government said, and not leaving it to the market as they do in England. That means that if we have to use the powers of dissolution set out in the Education Reform Act 1988 as a last resort, we will be prepared to do so. It would be bizarre if, having campaigned in a referendum for additional powers, including powers over higher education, politicians in Wales said that they would be afraid to use the powers that they already have.

Mewn perthynas â phwynt c yn y cynnig, mae cydweithio yn bwysig ac yn yrrwr canolog ar gyfer newid lle y gall gynnig fanteision ymarferol wedi’u profi. Wrth gwrs, mae’n well gennym gydweithio gwirfoddol i uno gorfodol, a dyna beth y byddwn yn ceisio’i annog. Fodd bynnag, credwn hefyd mewn cynllunio ein darpariaeth addysg uwch, fel y dywedodd Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un, yn hytrach na’i gadael i’r farchnad fel y gwnânt yn Lloegr. Mae hynny’n golygu, os oes rhaid i ni ddefnyddio’r pwerau diddymu a nodir yn Neddf Diwygio Addysg 1988 fel y dewis olaf, y byddwn yn barod i wneud hynny. Byddai’n rhyfedd pe bai gwleidyddion yng Nghymru, ar ôl ymgyrchu mewn refferendwm am bwerau ychwanegol, gan gynnwys pwerau dros addysg uwch, yn ofni defnyddio’r pwerau sydd ganddynt eisoes.

I must remind Members what is happening across the border.

Mae’n rhaid i mi atgoffa’r Aelodau o’r hyn sy’n digwydd dros y ffin. 

Simon Thomas: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I completely agree with the Minister on that point, but we also need to utilise those powers in the most appropriate way and in a way that hopefully gets the support of the sector as a whole. So, when he considers such moves, will he bear in mind that it would be better to see new institutions being created, rather than institutions taking over other institutions, which could create local difficulties?

Simon Thomas: Diolch i’r Gweinidog am ildio. Cytunaf yn llwyr â’r Gweinidog ar y pwynt hwnnw, ond mae angen hefyd i ni ddefnyddio’r pwerau hynny yn y ffordd fwyaf priodol ac mewn ffordd a fydd, gobeithio, yn cael cefnogaeth y sector cyfan. Felly, pan fydd yn ystyried symudiadau o’r fath, a wnaiff gadw mewn cof y byddai’n well gweld sefydliadau newydd yn cael eu creu, yn hytrach na sefydliadau yn cymryd sefydliadau eraill drosodd, a allai greu anawsterau lleol?

Leighton Andrews: I understand precisely what the Member is saying in that regard. Clearly, we will look at all opportunities to move this agenda forward. However, I think that if you have powers of last resort, you should not be afraid to use them. I would prefer not to have had to send commissioners in to Blaenau Gwent to run the education service, but it was a power of last resort and it had to be used. Sometimes, you have to use powers of last resort.

Leighton Andrews: Yr wyf yn deall yn union yr hyn y mae’r Aelod yn ei ddweud yn hynny o beth. Yn amlwg, byddwn yn edrych ar bob cyfle i symud yr agenda hwn yn ei flaen. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn meddwl, os oes gennych bwerau pan fetha popeth arall, na ddylech ofni eu defnyddio. Byddai’n well gennyf beidio â bod wedi gorfod anfon comisiynwyr mewn i Flaenau Gwent i redeg y gwasanaeth addysg, ond yr oedd yn bŵer pan fethodd popeth arall ac yr oeddwn yn gorfod ei ddefnyddio. Weithiau, mae’n rhaid i chi ddefnyddio pwerau pan fetha popeth arall.

I have to remind Members what is happening across the border. The White Paper on higher education in England introduces a fundamental market into HE in England: new low-cost private providers able to cherry-pick certain subjects; the core and margin proposals designed to create a market in fees for some institutions; and the freeing of recruitment controls for elite institutions accepting students with AAB grades. The competitive market in England will have implications for us in Wales. We can either go down a market route, or we can plan our provision and ensure that we have stronger institutions—a smaller number of stronger universities, as my party’s manifesto put it.

Mae’n rhaid i mi atgoffa Aelodau o’r hyn sy’n digwydd dros y ffin. Mae’r Papur Gwyn ar addysg uwch yn Lloegr yn cyflwyno marchnad sylfaenol i addysg uwch yn Lloegr: gall darparwyr preifat cost isel newydd ddewis a dethol rhai pynciau; y cynigion craidd a ffiniol a gynlluniwyd i greu marchnad mewn ffioedd ar gyfer rhai sefydliadau; a llacio rheolau recriwtio ar gyfer sefydliadau elitaidd o ran derbyn myfyrwyr â graddau AAB. Bydd gan y farchnad gystadleuol yn Lloegr oblygiadau i ni yng Nghymru. Gallwn naill ai fynd i lawr llwybr y farchnad, neu gallwn gynllunio ein darpariaeth a sicrhau bod gennym sefydliadau cryfach—nifer llai o brifysgolion cryfach, chwedl maniffesto fy mhlaid.

I cannot understand why the Conservatives are so obsessed with process rather than outcome. Why are they not prepared to think big? We need high ambition in the higher education sector, not parochial small mindedness. In my 29 November statement, I outlined my initial response to HEFCW’s advice on the future shape of the HE sector in Wales. I have to say that the Liberal Democrats’ spokesperson completely misrepresented my response to the Plaid Cymru spokesperson back in October in respect of HEFCW’s independence from the Government.

Ni allaf ddeall pam fod y Ceidwadwyr mor obsesiynol am broses yn hytrach na chanlyniadau. Pam nad ydynt hwy’n barod i feddwl ar raddfa fawr? Mae arnom angen uchelgais uchel yn y sector addysg uwch, nid meddyliau bach plwyfol. Yn fy natganiad ar 29 Tachwedd, amlinellais fy ymateb cychwynnol i gyngor y cyngor cyllido ar siâp y sector addysg uwch yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol. Mae’n rhaid imi ddweud bod llefarydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi cam-gynrychioli yn llwyr fy ymateb i lefarydd Plaid Cymru yn ôl ym mis Hydref o ran annibyniaeth y cyngor cyllido ar y Llywodraeth.

Last week, I said that I was minded to accept HEFCW’s recommendation that Cardiff Metropolitan University, the University of Wales, Newport and the University of Glamorgan should merge. That would provide an opportunity for the development of a strong and competitive post-92 university in south-east Wales, and would build on the collaborative work established thus far with the Universities Heads of the Valleys Institute. We need a more honest debate on this proposal. The number of full-time students, including postgraduates, in the combined university would be 25,000, not 43,000 as has been suggested in the media. That compares with 27,000 at Manchester Metropolitan University and 21,800 at the University of the West of England.

Yr wythnos diwethaf, dywedais fy mod yn bwriadu derbyn argymhelliad y cyngor cyllido y dylai Prifysgol Metropolitan Caerdydd, Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd a Phrifysgol Morgannwg uno. Byddai hynny’n rhoi cyfle i ddatblygu prifysgol ôl-92 gref a chystadleuol yn ne-ddwyrain Cymru, gan adeiladu ar y gwaith cydweithredol a wnaethpwyd hyd yma gydag Athrofa Prifysgolion Blaenau’r Cymoedd. Mae arnom angen dadl fwy gonest ar y cynnig hwn. Byddai’r nifer o fyfyrwyr llawn amser, gan gynnwys ôl-raddedigion, yn y brifysgol gyfunol yn 25,000, nid 43,000 fel yr awgrymwyd yn y cyfryngau. Mae hynny’n cymharu â 27,000 ym Mhrifysgol Metropolitan Manceinion a 21,800 ym Mhrifysgol Gorllewin Lloegr.

I would like to respond to the helpful contribution of the Plaid Cymru spokesperson. It is time that we spelled out carefully the opportunity for a metropolitan institution of scale in south-east Wales. It could be the most powerful post-92 institution in the whole of the United Kingdom. It would be a powerful driver for the economy of south-east Wales, including the two cities of Cardiff and Newport, as well as the Glamorgan and Gwent valleys. It would be an institution with real critical mass, with a strong overseas recruitment driver, and with a deeper and stronger research base. It would be a powerful institution that would include one of the strongest performing arts institutions, based on the world-class conservatoire that is the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, which is already part of the Glamorgan group. It would also include one of the oldest film schools in the UK in Newport, sitting alongside the acclaimed University of Glamorgan Atrium facility, which is just up the road, housing the Cardiff School of Creative and Cultural Industries. It would include the internationally recognised Cardiff School of Sport, which is part of Cardiff Metropolitan University, and would align with the new £3.7 million sport facilities at Glamorgan that are used by the academy of Cardiff City Football Club and international rugby teams.

Hoffwn ymateb i gyfraniad defnyddiol llefarydd Plaid Cymru. Mae’n bryd i ni fanylu â gofal ar y cyfle i gael sefydliad metropolitan o sylwedd yn ne-ddwyrain Cymru. Gallai fod y sefydliad ôl-92 mwyaf pwerus yn y Deyrnas Unedig yn gron. Byddai’n yrrwr pwerus ar gyfer economi de-ddwyrain Cymru, gan gynnwys dinasoedd Caerdydd a Chasnewydd, yn ogystal â chymoedd Morgannwg a Gwent. Byddai’n sefydliad gyda màs critigol go iawn, gyda gyrrwr recriwtio tramor cryf, a chyda sylfaen ymchwil dyfnach a chryfach. Byddai’n sefydliad pwerus a fyddai’n cynnwys un o’r sefydliadau celfyddydau perfformio cryfaf, yn seiliedig ar y conservatoire gyda’r gorau yn y byd sydd gennym yng Ngholeg Brenhinol Cerdd a Drama Cymru, sydd eisoes yn rhan o grŵp Morgannwg. Byddai hefyd yn cynnwys un o’r ysgolion ffilm hynaf yn y DU yng Nghasnewydd, yn eistedd ochr yn ochr â chyfleuster Atrium Prifysgol Morgannwg sydd wedi denu cymaint o glod ac sydd ychydig i fyny’r ffordd, yn lletya Ysgol Diwydiannau Creadigol a Diwylliannol Caerdydd. Byddai’n cynnwys Ysgol Chwaraeon Caerdydd a gydnabyddir yn rhyngwladol, sy’n rhan o Brifysgol Metropolitan Caerdydd, a byddai’n cyd-fynd â’r cyfleusterau chwaraeon £3.7 miliwn newydd ym Morgannwg sy’n cael eu defnyddio gan academi Clwb Pêl-droed Dinas Caerdydd a thimau rygbi rhyngwladol.

It would be an institution offering cutting-edge research and development in scientific sectors, allied to the economic priorities of Wales. It would include the National Centre for Product Design and Development Research at Cardiff Metropolitan University and the University of Glamorgan’s Sustainable Environment Research Centre, which focuses on low-carbon technologies, with its international reputation in hydrogen fuel cell research and development.

Byddai’n sefydliad a fyddai’n cynnig gwaith ymchwil a datblygu arloesol mewn sectorau gwyddonol, ar y cyd â blaenoriaethau economaidd Cymru. Byddai’n cynnwys y Ganolfan Genedlaethol ar gyfer Ymchwil i Ddylunio a Datblygu Cynhyrchion ym Mhrifysgol Metropolitan Caerdydd a Chanolfan Ymchwil Amgylchedd Cynaliadwy Prifysgol Morgannwg, sy’n canolbwyntio ar dechnolegau carbon isel, gyda’i enw da rhyngwladol ym maes ymchwil a datblygu celloedd tanwydd hydrogen.

It would have a strengthened art and design school, and would bring together the combined skills and strengths of Cardiff Metropolitan University and the University of Wales, Newport, across a range of courses. It would build on the joint bid by Newport and UWIC, as it was then, to the last research assessment exercise, and their joint working over many years. It would bring together critical mass in business and management studies, and bring together three business and management schools with different strengths. It would bring real scale in education, with initial teacher training, and bring modern facilities, such as Newport’s new city centre campus, Glamorgan’s Atrium and the new Business School building at Cardiff Metropolitan University.

Byddai ganddo ysgol gelf a dylunio cryfach, a fyddai’n dwyn ​​ynghyd sgiliau a chryfderau cyfunol Prifysgol Metropolitan Caerdydd a Phrifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd, ar draws ystod o gyrsiau. Byddai’n adeiladu ar y cais ar y cyd gan Gasnewydd a UWIC, fel yr oedd bryd hynny, i’r ymarfer asesu ymchwil diwethaf, a’u cydweithio dros nifer o flynyddoedd. Byddai’n dwyn ​​ynghyd màs critigol mewn astudiaethau busnes a rheoli, ac yn dwyn ​​ynghyd tair ysgol busnes a rheoli gyda gwahanol gryfderau. Byddai’n dod â graddfa go iawn i addysg, gyda hyfforddiant cychwynnol athrawon, a dod â chyfleusterau modern, fel campws canol y ddinas newydd Casnewydd, Atrium Morgannwg ac adeilad yr Ysgol Fusnes newydd ym Mhrifysgol Metropolitan Caerdydd.

In south-east Wales, we could create one of the most powerful post-92 institutions in the United Kingdom. The initial period of public engagement on HEFCW’s report has concluded. As I have made clear, before any final decision is made in relation to an individual higher education corporation, I will consult the institutions affected. A statutory consultation will provide an opportunity for those institutions to put forward evidence and raise any issues or concerns that they may wish to discuss. I anticipate that this period of consultation will begin early in the new year. I believe that in responding to HEFCW’s advice as I have indicated, we will be delivering a more effective, efficient and dynamic higher education sector in Wales.

Yn ne-ddwyrain Cymru, gallem greu un o’r sefydliadau ôl-92 mwyaf grymus yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae’r cyfnod cychwynnol o ymgysylltu â’r cyhoedd ar adroddiad y cyngor cyllido wedi gorffen. Fel yr wyf wedi gwneud yn glir, cyn y gwneir unrhyw benderfyniad terfynol mewn perthynas â chorfforaeth addysg uwch unigol, byddaf yn ymgynghori â’r sefydliadau yr effeithir arnynt. Bydd ymgynghoriad statudol yn rhoi cyfle i’r sefydliadau hynny gyflwyno tystiolaeth a chodi unrhyw faterion neu bryderon a allent fod yn dymuno eu trafod. Yr wyf yn rhagweld y bydd y cyfnod hwn o ymgynghori yn dechrau yn gynnar yn y flwyddyn newydd. Wrth ymateb i gyngor y cyngor cyllido, fel yr wyf wedi dweud, credaf y byddwn yn darparu sector addysg uwch mwy effeithiol, effeithlon a deinamig yng Nghymru.

Angela Burns: I will be quick, because I know that I have only three minutes. I would be horrified, Minister, if a Labour group voted against this motion, and I urge you and your colleagues to go and read the Record of Proceedings, because I am absolutely astounded by some of the drivel, and not just drivel but defensive outrage, that I have heard from David Rees, because I was very clear in my statement that it was only in part and that only some institutions needed to pick up their game and that there were some areas of research that were not very good. It was all about the ‘somes’. At the end of the day, those ‘somes’ are the important bit of driving ourselves forward. You really need to go back and have another look.

Angela Burns: Byddaf yn gyflym, gan fy mod yn gwybod mai dim ond tri munud sydd gennyf. Byddwn yn arswydo, Weinidog, pe bai grŵp Llafur yn pleidleisio yn erbyn y cynnig hwn, ac anogaf chi a’ch cyd-Aelodau i fynd a darllen Cofnod y Trafodion, oherwydd yr wyf yn gwbl syn yn dilyn peth o’r rwtsh, ac nid dim ond rwtsh ond dicter amddiffynnol, yr wyf wedi ei glywed gan David Rees, oherwydd bûm yn glir iawn yn fy natganiad mai dim ond yn rhannol a dim ond rhai sefydliadau sydd angen gwella a bod yna rai meysydd ymchwil nad oeddynt yn dda iawn. ‘Rhai’ oedd y gytgan. Yn y pen draw, y ‘rhai’ hynny yw’r darn pwysig o yrru ein hunain ymlaen. Mae wir angen i chi fynd yn ôl a chael golwg arall.

You should support this motion. You made a statement last week, and this is about giving all of us the opportunity to talk about something that is absolutely, fundamentally critical to the success of students in Wales and the Welsh economy. The whole point of this debate, put together by the three of us, was to ensure that we have a chance to have that kind of dialogue, because if you are in opposition, it is totally irresponsible to allow people to hare off in one direction without taking the other parties or the sector with them. All that we want to do is to act as a check and balance and to get that debate going. We will not stop, we will carry on debating, because it is too vital not to. The whole area of research probably merits an entire debate on its own.

Dylech gefnogi’r cynnig hwn. Gwnaethoch ddatganiad yr wythnos diwethaf, ac mae hyn yn ymwneud â rhoi cyfle i bob un ohonom siarad am rywbeth sydd yn hollol, sylfaenol hanfodol i lwyddiant myfyrwyr yng Nghymru ac economi Cymru. Holl bwynt y ddadl hon, a luniwyd gan y tri ohonom, oedd sicrhau bod gennym gyfle i gael y math hwnnw o ddeialog, oherwydd os ydych yn wrthblaid, mae’n hollol anghyfrifol i alluogi pobl i sgrialu i ffwrdd mewn un cyfeiriad heb gymryd y pleidiau eraill neu’r sector gyda nhw. Y cyfan yr ydym am ei wneud yw gweithredu fel rhwystrau a gwrthbwysau ac ysbarduno’r ddadl honno. Ni fyddwn yn rhoi’r gorau iddi, byddwn yn parhau i ddadlau, oherwydd ei fod yn rhy bwysig i beidio â gwneud. Mae’r holl faes o ymchwil fwy na thebyg yn haeddu dadl gyfan ar ei ben ei hun.

Unfortunately, Dafydd Elis-Thomas is not here at the moment, because I would say to him that, again, if he went back over the Record of Proceedings, he would see extremely clearly that I am totally supportive of the strategic alliance between the universities of Bangor and Aberystwyth. I went to the launch this morning. I was there to watch them do it. It is superb and that is the kind of amazing initiative that we should be replicating. Minister, you should be using your not-inconsiderable talent to make that happen, rather than marching up to universities, parking your tanks on their lawns and saying, ‘Do it my way, or else’, because you could do it, and we would help you to achieve that aim, because this is important.

Yn anffodus, nid yw Dafydd Elis-Thomas yma ar hyn o bryd, oherwydd byddwn yn dweud wrtho, unwaith eto, pe bai ef yn mynd yn ôl dros Gofnod y Trafodion, fe welai yn hynod o glir fy mod yn hollol gefnogol i’r gynghrair strategol rhwng prifysgolion Bangor ac Aberystwyth. Euthum i’r lansiad y bore yma. Yr oeddwn yno yn eu gwylio nhw yn gwneud hynny. Mae’n wych a dyna’r math o fenter anhygoel y dylem fod yn ei dyblygu. Weinidog, dylech fod yn defnyddio eich talent nid ansylweddol i wneud i hynny ddigwydd, yn hytrach na gorymdeithio tuag at brifysgolion, parcio eich tanciau ar eu lawntiau a dweud, ‘Gwell i chi wneud hyn fy ffordd i’, oherwydd gallech wneud hynny, a byddem yn eich helpu i gyflawni’r nod hwnnw, oherwydd mae hyn yn bwysig.

We need to revisit this. We need to understand the independence of HEFCW. Aled, you made a comment, and to answer you, I have an e-mail from the chief executive of HEFCW to a civil servant in the Department for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills in which he says that the Minister requires a letter from HEFCW laying out its overall recommendations on sector structure, playing up rather more than in the existing executive summary the positive advantages of restructuring, especially in the north-east and south-east. This letter was to serve as a cover note for the existing document.

Mae angen i ni edrych eto ar hyn. Mae angen i ni ddeall annibyniaeth y cyngor cyllido. Aled, gwnaethoch sylw, ac i’ch ateb, mae gennyf e-bost oddi wrth brif weithredwr y cyngor cyllido at was sifil yn yr Adran Plant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau lle mae’n dweud bod y Gweinidog yn gofyn am lythyr gan y cyngor cyllido yn gosod allan ei argymhellion cyffredinol ar strwythur y sector, yn sôn tipyn yn fwy na’r hyn sydd yn y crynodeb gweithredol presennol am fanteision cadarnhaol ailstrwythuro, yn enwedig yn y gogledd-ddwyrain a’r de-ddwyrain. Yr oedd y llythyr hwn i fod i weithredu fel tudalen flaen ar gyfer y ddogfen bresennol.

We need honesty and transparency. We will support you if you will front up and be truthful.

Mae arnom angen gonestrwydd a thryloywder. Fe wnawn ni eich cefnogi os ydych yn agored a gonest.

The Presiding Officer: The proposal is that the motion be agreed. Is there any objection? I see that there is not. In accordance with Standing Order No. 12.36, I therefore declare the motion agreed.

Y Llywydd: Y cynnig yw bod y cynnig yn cael ei gytuno. A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? Gwelaf nad oes. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 12.36, felly, datganaf fod y cynnig wedi’i gytuno.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion agreed.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Jocelyn Davies.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Jocelyn Davies.

Cynnig NDM4876 William Graham

Motion NDM4876 William Graham

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn gresynu wrth benderfyniad Llywodraeth Cymru i uno Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru, Cyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru a Chomisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru yn un Corff Amgylcheddol.

1. Regrets the Welsh Government’s decision to merge the Environment Agency Wales, the Countryside Council for Wales and the Forestry Commission Wales into one Single Environmental Body.

2. Yn credu na fu digon o graffu ar achos busnes Llywodraeth Cymru yn amlinellu’r uno arfaethedig.

2. Believes there has been insufficient scrutiny of the Welsh Government’s business case outlining the proposed merger.

3. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i:

3. Calls on the Welsh Government to:

a) Gohirio’r uno arfaethedig nes ei fod wedi bod yn destun craffu cyhoeddus llawn; a

a) Postpone the proposed merger until it has been subject to full public scrutiny; and

b) Rhoi sylw i bryderon difrifol y sector coedwigaeth ynglyn â chynnwys Comisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru yn yr uno.

b) Address the serious concerns from the forestry sector about the inclusion of Forestry Commission Wales in the merger.

Russell George: I move the motion.

Russell George: Cynigiaf y cynnig.

Before I get into the heart of my contribution, I would like to address Plaid’s amendment 1. Although I, of course, welcome the Environment and Sustainability Committee’s decision to hold an inquiry into the Welsh Government’s business case, we tabled our debate days before the committee made its decision. I suggested to my colleagues some weeks ago that a debate should take place on this issue, well before the Government announced its decision last week. That decision has changed the tone and the nature of the debate today. However, if you draw out the underlying principle of what Plaid is putting forward in its amendment, you can easily infer that it accepts the need for wider scrutiny. Therefore, if Plaid would like to withdraw its amendment, we and many other organisations and businesses in the environmental and forestry sector would welcome that. As it stands, we empathise with the point, but cannot support the amendment, because it is my duty and the duty of this party, as the official opposition, to hold the Government to account on a decision that we believe is rash, poorly thought through and badly handled.  

Cyn i mi fynd at wraidd fy nghyfraniad, hoffwn roi sylw i welliant 1 Plaid. Er fy mod, wrth gwrs, yn croesawu penderfyniad y   Pwyllgor Amgylchedd a Chynaliadwyedd i gynnal ymchwiliad i achos busnes Llywodraeth Cymru, gwnaethom gyflwyno ein dadl ddyddiau cyn i’r pwyllgor wneud ei benderfyniad. Awgrymais wrth fy nghydweithwyr rai wythnosau yn ôl y dylid cynnal dadl ar y mater hwn, ymhell cyn i’r Llywodraeth gyhoeddi ei phenderfyniad yr wythnos diwethaf. Mae’r penderfyniad hwnnw wedi newid tôn a natur y ddadl heddiw. Fodd bynnag, os ydych yn tynnu allan yr egwyddor sylfaenol o’r hyn y mae Plaid yn ei gyflwyno yn ei gwelliant, hawdd yw casglu ei bod yn derbyn yr angen am graffu ehangach. Felly, pe bai Plaid Cymru yn dymuno tynnu ei gwelliant yn ôl, byddem ni a llawer o sefydliadau a busnesau eraill yn y sector amgylcheddol a choedwigaeth yn croesawu hynny. Fel y mae, yr ydym yn cydymdeimlo â’r pwynt, ond ni allwn gefnogi’r gwelliant, oherwydd ei fod yn ddyletswydd arnaf ac yn ddyletswydd ar y blaid hon, fel yr wrthblaid swyddogol, i ddal y Llywodraeth i gyfrif ar benderfyniad y credwn sy’n fyrbwyll, sydd heb gael ei ystyried yn drwyadl ac sydd wedi cael ei reoli’n wael.

3.15 p.m.

At the heart of this debate are two issues. The first is, what do we want a single environmental body to do? What work streams is it to undertake, and what outcomes do we expect it to achieve? Secondly, is it appropriate that the three organisations involved in this proposed merger—the Environment Agency, Countryside Council for Wales and Forestry Commission Wales—should all be merged together, or should the Forestry Commission be left out of any future plans?

Wrth wraidd y ddadl hon ceir dau fater. Y cyntaf yw, beth yr ydym am i gorff amgylcheddol sengl ei wneud? Â pha ffrydiau gwaith y bydd yn ymgymryd, a pha ganlyniadau ydym yn disgwyl iddo eu cyflawni? Yn ail, a yw’n briodol i uno’r tri sefydliad sy’n rhan o’r uno arfaethedig hwn—Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, Cyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru a Chomisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru—neu a ddylid gadael y Comisiwn Coedwigaeth allan o unrhyw gynlluniau yn y dyfodol?

Simon Thomas: I am thankful to Russell George for giving way. He will know that we want to see the fullest scrutiny possible of the Government plans, but I would like to reverse his question, and turn it on its head, in a way. Is it suitable that the single environment that we have in Wales is governed by three separate bodies?

Simon Thomas: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Russell George am ildio. Bydd yn gwybod ein bod eisiau gweld y craffu llawnaf posibl o gynlluniau’r Llywodraeth, ond hoffwn wrthdroi ei gwestiwn, a’i droi ar ei ben, mewn ffordd. A yw’n addas bod yr unig amgylchedd sydd gennym yng Nghymru yn cael ei lywodraethu gan dri chorff ar wahân?

Russell George: I will go on to address those points later in this debate.

Russell George: Af ymlaen i ymateb i’r pwyntiau hynny’n ddiweddarach yn y ddadl.

In the context of a new single environmental body, we believe that the way the Government has gone about establishing an organisation to deliver key environmental strategy before it really knows what it wants to achieve is placing the cart before the horse, and is a bizarre way of improving environmental governance and outcomes. It would be fair to expect any proposals for change to reflect the predicted reality for the environment that the bodies need to work with. For example, we know that, sometime before the end of this Assembly, the Government will introduce a sustainable development Bill. We would logically expect that Bill to set the overarching purpose for all Government activity—not just on the environment—renewing the principle of sustainable development and putting it back at the heart of the public sector. Surely it would have been strategically more coherent for this to be the first Bill of the new session, setting out the purpose of all other work, and enshrining in legislation the function and governance structure of a new single environmental body, and then allowing key environmental policy, like the natural environment framework, to follow. After all, the NEF should be built strongly around the principles of sustainable development to emphasise the social, economic and environmental dimensions of ecosystems and the services that they provide.

Yng nghyd-destun corff amgylcheddol sengl newydd, yr ydym yn credu bod y ffordd y mae’r Llywodraeth wedi mynd ati i sefydlu corff i gyflawni strategaeth amgylcheddol allweddol cyn ei bod, mewn gwirionedd, yn gwybod beth mae am ei gyflawni yn rhoi’r drol o flaen y ceffyl, ac yn ffordd ryfedd o wella llywodraethu a chanlyniadau amgylcheddol. Byddai’n deg i ddisgwyl bod unrhyw gynigion ar gyfer newid yn adlewyrchu’r realiti a ragwelir ar gyfer yr amgylchedd y bydd angen i’r cyrff weithio gydag ef. Er enghraifft, gwyddom, rywbryd cyn diwedd y Cynulliad hwn, bydd y Llywodraeth yn cyflwyno Bil datblygu cynaliadwy. Byddem yn disgwyl yn rhesymol y byddai’r Bil hwnnw’n gosod y diben cyffredinol ar gyfer holl weithgarwch y Llywodraeth—nid yn unig ar yr amgylchedd—gan adnewyddu’r egwyddor datblygu cynaliadwy a’i rhoi yn ôl wrth wraidd y sector cyhoeddus. Siawns y byddai wedi bod yn fwy cydlynol yn strategol pe bai’r Bil hwn wedi dod yn gyntaf yn y sesiwn newydd, gan nodi diben yr holl waith arall, a gan ymgorffori mewn deddfwriaeth strwythur swyddogaeth a llywodraethu corff sengl amgylcheddol newydd, ac wedyn yn caniatáu i bolisi amgylcheddol allweddol, fel y fframwaith amgylchedd naturiol, ddilyn. Wedi’r cyfan, dylid adeiladu fframwaith yr amgylchedd naturiol yn gryf o gwmpas egwyddorion datblygu cynaliadwy i bwysleisio dimensiynau cymdeithasol, economaidd ac amgylcheddol ecosystemau a’r gwasanaethau maent yn eu darparu.

So, what should we expect a single environmental body to deliver? It is clear that the current levels of unsustainability in Wales are mainly environmental—declining biodiversity, greenhouse gas emissions, and an unsustainable consumption of the earth’s resources, as reflected in Wales’s ecological footprint. I believe that the environment needs a very strong champion indeed over the coming years as both economic and ecological recessions bite harder.

Felly, beth ddylem ddisgwyl i gorff amgylcheddol sengl gyflawni? Mae’n amlwg bod y lefelau cyfredol o anghynaliadwyedd yng Nghymru yn bennaf yn rhai amgylcheddol—bioamrywiaeth yn lleihau, allyriadau nwyon tŷ gwydr, a defnydd anghynaliadwy o adnoddau’r ddaear, fel yr adlewyrchir yn ôl troed ecolegol Cymru. Credaf fod yr amgylchedd angen hyrwyddwr cryf iawn dros y blynyddoedd nesaf wrth i ddirwasgiadau economaidd ac ecolegol wasgu’n galetach.

We would, therefore, expect the body’s central purpose to be to reflect the imperative for Wales to live within environmental limits. This fundamental concept and foundation stone for our economic and social wellbeing gets no mention in the draft of the aims and functions of the new body. It would be valuable if there was an explicit reference to the role of this body in delivering sustainable development in Wales. The Welsh Government has made clear that it intends sustainable development to be the central organising principle of all public bodies; that definition is expressly set out on page 8 of ‘One Wales: One Planet’.

Byddem, felly, yn disgwyl mai diben canolog y corff fydd adlewyrchu’r rheidrwydd bod Cymru yn byw o fewn terfynau amgylcheddol. Nid oes unrhyw sôn am y garreg sylfaen hon ar gyfer ein lles economaidd a chymdeithasol yn y drafft o nodau a swyddogaethau’r corff newydd. Byddai’n werthfawr pe bai cyfeiriad penodol at rôl y corff hwn yn sicrhau datblygu cynaliadwy yng Nghymru. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gwneud yn glir mai datblygu cynaliadwy ddylai fod yn brif egwyddor ganolog pob corff cyhoeddus; nodir y diffiniad hwnnw’n benodol ar dudalen 8 o ‘Cymru’n Un: Cenedl Un Blaned’.

Therefore, it seems obvious that the function and aim of a new environmental body should be to contribute to this, but specifically to have a major focus on enhancing the environment, respecting its limits and using only a fair share of earth’s resources. It should have a duty to safeguard environmental quality and public goods. It should be responsible for monitoring and regulating the quality of ecosystems and their functioning. Its role must be to ensure the stewardship of environmental public goods, promoting environmental sustainability.

Felly, mae’n ymddangos yn amlwg mai cyfrannu at hyn a ddylai swyddogaeth a nod y corff amgylcheddol newydd fod, ond yn benodol cael ffocws mawr ar wella’r amgylchedd, parchu ei derfynau a defnyddio cyfran deg yn unig o adnoddau’r ddaear. Dylai fod ganddo ddyletswydd i ddiogelu ansawdd amgylcheddol a nwyddau cyhoeddus. Dylai fod yn gyfrifol am fonitro a rheoleiddio ansawdd ecosystemau a’u gweithrediad. Rhaid mai sicrhau stiwardiaeth nwyddau cyhoeddus amgylcheddol, wrth hyrwyddo cynaliadwyedd amgylcheddol yw ei rôl.

The issues of independence, accountability and transparency are of course crucial. It is vital that any new body is completely independent of Government. Ultimately, the body should have a responsibility to the Welsh people and the environment, and not just be an advisory body for Ministers. Transparency and accountability are crucial if the environment is to be effectively safeguarded. The evidence base on which decisions are to be made should be freely available and not require opposition parties and other environmental non-governmental organisations to use freedom of information requests.

Wrth gwrs, mae materion annibyniaeth, atebolrwydd a thryloywder yn hollbwysig. Mae’n hanfodol bod unrhyw gorff newydd yn gwbl annibynnol ar Lywodraeth. Yn y pen draw, dylai fod gan y corff gyfrifoldeb i bobl Cymru ac i’r amgylchedd, ac nid bod yn gorff ymgynghorol ar gyfer Gweinidogion yn unig. Mae tryloywder ac atebolrwydd yn hanfodol os yw’r amgylchedd i gael ei ddiogelu’n effeithiol. Dylai’r sylfaen dystiolaeth y ceir penderfyniadau eu gwneud arni fod ar gael yn hawdd heb fod angen i wrthbleidiau a chyrff anllywodraethol amgylcheddol eraill ddefnyddio ceisiadau rhyddid gwybodaeth.

The key concern for me, as the current proposals are laid out, is how such a body would resolve contradictory decisions within the same organisation. I fear that, in future, decisions will not pass a ‘Pembrokeshire power station’ test. In this instance, the concerns of the impact of a development on conservation interests were clearly evidenced and published by CCW. It is obvious that, in future, such a debate and the methods to resolve any problems are likely to be held behind closed doors and will be a block to scrutiny by outside bodies concerned with such matters, such as WWF Cymru and Friends of the Earth Cymru. We just do not believe that what has been presented in the current business case, and the preferred model chosen, seriously addresses these fundamental issues.

Y prif bryder i mi, fel mae’r cynigion presennol wedi’u hamlinellu, yw sut y byddai corff o’r fath yn datrys penderfyniadau anghyson o fewn yr un sefydliad. Mae arnaf ofn, yn y dyfodol, na fydd penderfyniadau’n pasio prawf ‘gorsaf bŵer Penfro’. Yn yr achos hwn, cafwyd tystiolaeth amlwg ynghylch y pryderon ynglŷn ag effaith datblygiad ar fuddiannau cadwraeth ac fe’i cyhoeddwyd gan CCGC. Mae’n amlwg yn y dyfodol, mae’n debygol y cynhelir dadl o’r fath a’r dulliau i ddatrys unrhyw broblemau y tu ôl i ddrysau caeedig, a bydd yn rhwystr i graffu gan gyrff allanol sy’n ymwneud â materion o’r fath, fel WWF Cymru a Chyfeillion y Ddaear Cymru. Nid ydym wir yn credu bod yr hyn sydd wedi’i gyflwyno yn yr achos busnes presennol, a’r fodel a ffefrir a ddewiswyd, yn ymdrin â’r materion sylfaenol hyn o ddifrif.

There are issues of how these three different organisations could be merged together. The British Ecological Society said that

Ceir materion ynghylch sut y gellid uno’r tair gwahanol sefydliad hyn gyda’i gilydd. Dywedodd Cymdeithas Ecolegol Prydain fod

‘the three bodies have very different aims, and in combining them there is a risk that some objectives are undermined, for example those of conservation and biodiversity protection, which could be sidelined by the new aims of a larger organisation’.

‘gan y tri chorff nodau gwahanol iawn, ac wrth eu cyfuno mae risg y caiff rhai amcanion eu tanseilio, er enghraifft y rheiny ynghylch amddiffyn cadwraeth a bioamrywiaeth, y gellid ei roi o’r neilltu gan nodau newydd sefydliad mwy’.

Similar concerns have been raised by other environmental NGOs, farmers unions, local authorities, private business—none of which, of course, have been consulted in relation to the rationale behind bringing these three organisations together. We have real concerns about how Forestry Commission Wales fits into the proposed new body and whether it should really be there at all. As some Members will know from recent weeks of correspondence, individuals, private businesses working in the forestry sector and the Forestry Commission itself have written to us, unable to understand the rationale behind the merger.

Codwyd pryderon tebyg gan gyrff anllywodraethol amgylcheddol eraill, undebau ffermwyr, awdurdodau lleol, busnesau preifat—a’r un ohonynt, wrth gwrs, wedi’u hymgynghori ynghylch y rhesymeg y tu ôl cyfuno’r tri sefydliad. Mae gennym bryderon gwirioneddol ynghylch sut mae Comisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru yn ffitio i mewn i’r corff newydd arfaethedig ac a ddylai fod yno o gwbl mewn gwirionedd. Fel y bydd rhai Aelodau’n gwybod o ohebiaeth yr wythnosau diweddar, mae unigolion, busnesau preifat sy’n gweithio yn y sector coedwigaeth a’r Comisiwn Coedwigaeth ei hun wedi ysgrifennu atom, yn methu â deall y rhesymeg y tu ôl i uno.

We believe that this Government proposal puts in real danger the future of the forestry industry in Wales—a currently thriving industry that contributes £841 million to the Welsh economy and employs 22,500—and will probably put Wales in a position of being one of the only countries in Europe not to have a dedicated and arm’s-length forestry organisation supporting the needs of the industry. There are two principle concerns about the costs reflected in the business case and the potential removal of the commercial aspect of FCW’s work. First, the industry has examined the business case and it does not believe that the figures stack up; rather, it believes that it has been written to justify the decision. It strongly feels that the cost savings suggested do not include the true costs that this merger would generate. Secondly, there is also the concern that any changes to FCW and the uncertainty of private businesses securing timber supplies from it may damage future investment in Wales. Having spoken to worried timber companies in Montgomeryshire, I must agree with companies like G and T Evans in Newtown, which believes that the commercial work of FCW should be strengthened, not buried within a body with no current remit, ensuring that experienced staff working with the sector will be lost.

Yr ydym yn credu bod y cynnig hwn gan y Llywodraeth yn rhoi dyfodol y diwydiant coedwigaeth yng Nghymru mewn perygl gwirioneddol—diwydiant ffyniannus ar hyn o bryd sy’n cyfrannu £841 miliwn i economi Cymru ac yn cyflogi 22,500—a fydd, mae’n debyg, yn rhoi Cymru yn y sefyllfa o fod yn un o’r unig wledydd yn Ewrop heb gorff coedwigaeth pwrpasol a hyd braich sy’n cefnogi anghenion y diwydiant. Mae yna ddau brif bryder am y costau sy’n cael eu hadlewyrchu yn yr achos busnes a’r gwaredu posibl ar agwedd fasnachol gwaith CCC. Yn gyntaf, mae’r diwydiant wedi archwilio’r achos busnes ac nid yw’n credu bod y ffigurau’n dal dŵr; yn hytrach, mae’n credu ei fod wedi ei lunio i gyfiawnhau’r penderfyniad. Teimla’n gryf nad yw’r arbedion cost a awgrymwyd yn cynnwys y costau gwirioneddol a fyddai’r uno hwn yn eu cynhyrchu. Yn ail, ceir pryder hefyd y gallai unrhyw newidiadau i CCC ac ansicrwydd busnesau preifat am sicrhau cyflenwadau o bren niweidio buddsoddi yn y dyfodol yng Nghymru. Ar ôl siarad â chwmnïau pren pryderus yn sir Drefaldwyn, rhaid imi gytuno â chwmnïau fel G a T Evans yn y Drenewydd, sy’n credu y dylid cryfhau gwaith masnachol CCC, nid ei gladdu o fewn corff sydd heb unrhyw gylch gwaith presennol, a fydd yn sicrhau bod staff profiadol sy’n gweithio gyda’r sector yn cael eu colli.

To conclude, there are real concerns about these proposals, not to mention how the Government has gone about its consultation and how it has dealt with the concerns of the sectors involved. We can see no option other than to postpone the proposed merger until wider scrutiny has been undertaken and until wider Welsh society has had an opportunity to shape what will be a very important body for the future of the Welsh environment and our wellbeing.

I gloi, mae yna bryderon gwirioneddol am y cynigion hyn, heb sôn am sut y mae’r Llywodraeth wedi mynd ati i ymgynghori a sut y mae wedi delio â phryderon y sectorau dan sylw. Ni allwn weld unrhyw ddewis heblaw gohirio’r uno arfaethedig nes y ceir craffu ehangach a nes bod y gymdeithas ehangach yng Nghymru wedi cael cyfle i ddylanwadu ar gorff a fydd yn bwysig iawn ar gyfer dyfodol amgylchedd Cymru a’n lles.

Gwelliant 1 Jocelyn Davies

Amendment 1 Jocelyn Davies

Dileu’r cyfan a rhoi yn ei le:

Delete all and replace with:

Yn croesawu penderfyniad y Pwyllgor Amgylchedd a Chynaliadwyedd i gynnal ymchwiliad trwyadl i achos busnes Llywodraeth Cymru ynghylch y cynnig i uno Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru, Cyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru a Chomisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru yn Un Corff Amgylcheddol.

Welcomes the decision of the Environment and Sustainability Committee to hold a thorough inquiry into the Welsh Government's business case concerning the proposed merger of the Environment Agency Wales, the Countryside Council for Wales and the Forestry Commission Wales into one Single Environmental Body.

Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Jocelyn Davies.

Lord Elis-Thomas: I move amendment 1 in the name of Jocelyn Davies.

Mae’n dda gennyf siarad i’r gwelliant hwn a’i wneud yn gwbl glir nad oes unrhyw fwriad i dynnu’r gwelliant hwn yn ôl. Rhaid dweud imi weld cynnig yr wrthblaid yr ochr arall i’r Siambr yn drist iawn i’w ddarllen. Mae’r cynnig yn trin y mater cynhyrfus hwn o gyfuno tri chorff cyhoeddus safonol iawn yn y Deyrnas Unedig ac yng Nghymru fel mater o ad-drefnu technegol o fewn y gwasanaeth sifil, gan ganolbwyntio yn arbennig ar y berthynas rhwng y cynigion hyn a’r ymatebion tymor byr yr ydym wedi’u derbyn gan bobl sy’n gwrthwynebu’r newid.

I am pleased to speak to this amendment and to make it quite clear that there is no intention of withdrawing the amendment. I have to say that I find the motion tabled by the opposition party opposite rather sad. The motion deals with this exciting issue of merging three public bodies of very high quality in the UK and in Wales as an issue of technical reorganisation within the civil service, particularly focusing on the relationship between these proposals and the short-term responses that we have received from those opposed to the change.

Wrth gwrs, bydd y pwyllgor sy’n edrych ar y newidiadau hyn ac, yn arbennig, ar yr achos busnes—mae fy nghyfaill a oedd yn cynnig dros y ffordd yn aelod gweithgar o’r pwyllgor yn ogystal ag un arall yma—yn cynnal astudiaeth drwyadl o’r ffigurau. Caiff yr astudiaeth ei gwneud o safbwynt i ba raddau mae’r cynigion, fel y’u gosodwyd yn yr achos busnes, yn gwireddu’r weledigaeth bwysig sydd yn y cynnig gwreiddiol gan y Llywodraeth. Nid rhywbeth newydd yw hwn: mae’n mynd yn ôl cyn dogfen ‘Cymru Fyw’, mae’n dilyn y fframwaith ar yr amgylchedd naturiol ac mae’n rhan o’r ymagwedd tuag at gyfuno golwg ar ecosystemau yn amgylchedd Cymru.

Of course, the committee that is considering these changes, and especially the business case—my colleague who moved the motion is a very active member of the committee, as is another member here—is going to carry out a thorough study of the figures. That study will be carried out from the point of view of the extent to which these proposals as they are currently set out in the business case realise the important vision in the original proposal made by the Government. This is not new: this goes back to the days before ‘A Living Wales’, it follows the framework on the natural environment and it is part of the approach towards merging our vision on ecosystems in the Welsh environment.

Dyna yw’r gyriant y tu ôl i’r mater hwn. Cynaliadwyedd go iawn sydd y tu ôl i’r syniad o gyfuno Cyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru, Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd a’r Comisiwn Coedwigaeth. Credaf ei bod yn bwysig nad ydym yn colli golwg ar y weledigaeth amgylcheddol hon, oherwydd yn y fan honno, fel gyriant i weithredu gweledigaeth datblygiad cynaliadwy y Cynulliad a’r Llywodraeth, mae hyn i gyd yn cychwyn. Mae hwn, eto, yn un o ddeilliannau nodedig Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un. Carwn gydnabod cyfraniad y cyn Weinidog nad yw yma bellach, Jane Davidson, at y broses honno—mae’n gwneud yr un gwaith mewn lle arall—a’r cyn Weinidog arall sydd yn dal i fod yma, Elin Jones, gan mai eu gweledigaeth hwy sydd gennym. Tra fy mod yn canmol Gweinidogion, mae’n well imi ganmol y Gweinidog sy’n eistedd yma sy’n mynd â’r weledigaeth yn ei blaen.

That is the driver behind all of this. Real sustainability is what is behind this idea of merging the Countryside Council for Wales, the Environment Agency and the Forestry Commission. I think that it is important that we do not lose sight of that environmental vision, because that is the driver behind the Assembly and the Government’s vision for the development of sustainable development. This, again, is another notable outcome of the One Wales Government. I would like to recognise the contribution of the former Minister who is no longer here, Jane Davidson, to that process—she is doing the same work in another place—and the former Minister who is still here, Elin Jones; it is their vision that we have before us here. While I am praising Ministers, perhaps I should also praise the Minister who is sitting here today and who is taking this vision forward.

Mae’r weledigaeth hefyd yn cael ei harwain gan y gwyddonwyr, y cynllunwyr a’r aelodau lleyg disglair hynny sy’n arwain y tri chorff cyhoeddus y sonnir amdanynt. Mae wedi bod yn fraint i mi ac aelodau eraill y pwyllgor yn ystod ein hymchwiliadau diweddar i gael trafod â gwyddonwyr, cynrychiolwyr ac aelodau o’r cyrff hyn pan fyddwn yn trafod cwestiynau dyrys ynglŷn â chynllunio a’r amgylchedd yng Nghymru. Mae’r bobl hyn, a’r bobl sydd wedi bod ynghyd yn y bwrdd sydd wedi bod yn delio â’r prosiect hwn yn fewnol, wedi mynd drwy bob maes yn drwyadl er mwyn sicrhau bod y deilliannau yn diwallu anghenion amgylcheddol Cymru yn ogystal â bodloni fframweithiau’r Deyrnas Unedig, ac yn arbennig fframweithiau'r Undeb Ewropeaidd a’r Cenhedloedd Unedig yn eu rhaglen amgylcheddol. Dyma beth yr ydym yn delio ag ef mewn gwirionedd.

The vision is also one that is being led by scientists, planners and the bright laypeople who lead the three public bodies that we are discussing. It has been a privilege for me and other members of our committee during our recent inquiries to have discussions with scientists and representatives and members of these organisations as we discuss complex issues of planning and the environment in Wales. These people, and the people who have been working as part of the board dealing with this project internally, have gone through all of these areas thoroughly in order to ensure that the outcomes are appropriate to the environmental needs of Wales as well as to the frameworks of the UK, and particularly European Union and United Nations frameworks in their environmental programmes. That is what we are really dealing with.

Mae’r cynnig gwreiddiol hwn gan yr wrthblaid yn gofyn am ohirio. Gyda phob parch, yr wyf yn cofio bod yn rhan o’r drafodaeth wreiddiol cyn sefydlu’r cyngor cefn gwlad ar ddechrau’r 1990au, ac yr oedd sôn, hyd yn oed yr adeg honno, am y posibilrwydd o fwy o gydweithrediad. Yr adeg honno, yr Awdurdod Afonydd Cenedlaethol oedd y corff afonydd yng Nghymru. Yr oeddent yn sôn am well gydweithrediad oherwydd bod y materion a oedd yn ymwneud â’r amgylchedd yn faterion a oedd yn cydeffeithio ar ei gilydd.

The original opposition motion proposes a postponement. With all due respect, I recall being part of the original discussion prior to the establishment of the countryside council at the beginning of the 1990s, and there was talk, even at that time, of the possibility of more collaboration. At that time, the National Rivers Authority was the rivers body in Wales. They were talking about better collaboration then because the issues related to the environment were issues that were interdependent.

Erbyn hyn, yr ydym mewn byd newydd. Yr ydym wedi sylweddoli beth yw’r pwysau dychrynllyd sydd ar ein hamgylchedd. Yr ydym yn gwybod bod 30 y cant o’r gwasanaethau ecosystemig a gyflwynir inni gan dir, daear, awyr a dŵr Cymru yn dirywio. Mae’n rhaid inni allu ymateb i’r sefyllfa honno. Felly, mae’n dda gennyf gyflwyno’r gwelliant, ac ni fyddaf yn ei dynnu yn ôl.

We are now in a new world. We have come to realise the huge pressures on our environment. We know that 30 per cent of the ecosystem services provided to us by the land, air and water of Wales are in decline. We have to be able to respond to that situation. Therefore, I am pleased to move the amendment, and I will not withdraw it.

Antoinette Sandbach: The Minister’s announcement of a decision to create a single environment body has caused a great deal of concern. A letter from the Forestry Commission trade unions has indicated that the business case and the underpinning evidence, which were not made public, were passed to the Minister for Environment and Sustainable Development on 29 November for his consideration.

Antoinette Sandbach: Mae cyhoeddiad y Gweinidog am benderfyniad i greu corff amgylcheddol sengl wedi achosi llawer o bryder. Mae llythyr gan undebau llafur y Comisiwn Coedwigaeth wedi nodi y cafodd yr achos busnes a’r dystiolaeth sy’n sail iddo, na wnaed yn gyhoeddus, eu trosglwyddo i Weinidog yr Amgylchedd a Datblygu Cynaliadwy ar 29 Tachwedd ar gyfer ei ystyriaeth.

3.30 p.m.

Members of the public and those affected by this decision might regard the fact that the Minister spent less than a day looking at the business case as a cause for concern. They would be right to worry that, in that time, the Minister was unable to give due and proper consideration to the substantial risks identified within the business case, which the Minister may well have wanted to get further information on if a full and accurate picture was to be presented to the public in the business case.

Mae’n bosibl y gallai’r ffaith bod y Gweinidog wedi treulio llai na diwrnod yn edrych ar yr achos busnes peri pryder i’r rhai fydd yn cael eu heffeithio gan y penderfyniad hwn. Byddent yn iawn i boeni nad oedd y Gweinidog, yn y cyfnod hwnnw, yn gallu rhoi’r ystyriaeth ddyledus a phriodol i’r risgiau sylweddol a nodwyd yn yr achos busnes, y byddai’r Gweinidog efallai wedi bod yn awyddus i gael rhagor o wybodaeth yn ei gylch er mwyn i ddarlun lawn a chywir gael ei gyflwyno i’r cyhoedd yn yr achos busnes.

The Forestry Commission trade union says:

Dywed undeb llafur y Comisiwn Coedwigaeth:

‘We are concerned by the numerous comments from those who have seen the proposed business case that it is very weak throughout and does little to prove a sustainable case for bringing these three bodies together.’

Yr ydym yn bryderus oherwydd sylwadau niferus a wnaed gan y rhai sydd wedi gweld yr achos busnes arfaethedig ei bod yn wan iawn drwyddo ac nad yw’n gwneud rhyw lawer i brofi achos cynaliadwy ar gyfer dwyn y tri chorff at ei gilydd.

Concerns have also been raised about the process of consultation itself in creating the business case. ConFor, the Confederation of Forest Industries, wrote to you, Minister, on 1 August this year saying:

Mae pryderon wedi’u codi hefyd am y broses o ymgynghori ei hun wrth greu’r achos busnes. Ysgrifennodd ConFor, Cydffederasiwn Diwydiannau Coedwig, atoch chi, Weinidog, ar 1 Awst eleni gan ddweud:

‘As stakeholders, we have been engaging with key civil servants preparing the merger business case. To date, there has been very little transparency about the process. It is alleged that a full set of options was considered, but none of that consideration has been made public, nor has it been explained why other options, such as merger of the CCW and EA without Forestry Commission Wales, were rejected.’

Fel rhanddeiliaid, yr ydym wedi bod yn ymgysylltu â gweision sifil allweddol sy’n paratoi’r achos busnes ar gyfer uno. Hyd yma, ni fu fawr iawn o dryloywder am y broses. Honnir bod set lawn o opsiynau wedi ei hystyried, ond nid yw’r ystyriaeth hwnnw wedi’i wneud yn gyhoeddus, ac ni esboniwyd pam y cafodd opsiynau eraill, fel uno Cyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru ac Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd heb Gomisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru, eu gwrthod.

Indeed, Jon Owen Jones, the chair of Forestry Commission Wales, said that the team responsible for making the case for the merger

Yn wir, dywedodd Jon Owen Jones, cadeirydd Comisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru bod y tîm sy’n gyfrifol am wneud yr achos dros yr uno

‘are forced to take a heroically optimistic view of the new body’s future.’

yn cael eu gorfodi i gymryd golwg arwrol optimistaidd o ddyfodol y corff newydd.

He continued:

Aeth yn ei flaen:

‘We play no part in wider Environmental Regulation so why are we included? What do we bring to the table? I heard a senior civil servant answer this by saying “forestry is collateral damage in a wider cause”.’

Nid oes gennym rôl o ran rheoleiddio amgylcheddol ehangach felly pam yr ydym wedi cael ein cynnwys? Beth ydym ni’n ei gyfrannu? Clywais uwch was sifil yn ateb hyn drwy ddweud bod coedwigaeth yn ddifrod ystlysol mewn achos ehangach.

That, Minister, is a disgraceful response and approach by your department. The collateral damage that your civil servants seem to accept—

Mae hynny, Weinidog, yn ymateb ac ymagwedd warthus gan eich adran. Mae’r difrod ystlysol y mae’n ymddangos y mae eich gweision sifil yn derbyn—

Lord Elis-Thomas: It is inappropriate for the Member to quote at second hand comments that have allegedly been made by a civil servant who is unable to respond. It is not our tradition in this place to refer to public officials who serve us in that way.

Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: Nid yw’n briodol i’r Aelod i ddyfynnu wrth sylwadau ail law sydd, yn ôl y sôn, wedi eu gwneud gan was sifil sy’n methu ymateb. Nid ein traddodiad yn y lle hwn yw cyfeirio at swyddogion cyhoeddus sy’n ein gwasanaethu yn y ffordd honno.

Antoinette Sandbach: Well, those comments are on the public record and were made at the Institute of Welsh Affairs, so I am not quoting them out of context. The collateral damage that your civil servants seem to accept will have an impact on major employers in north Wales, Minister. Kronospan in Chirk is one of the top-10 manufacturing companies in Wales. It has invested more than £30 million over the past five years. It says that planned changes to Forestry Commission Wales pose a significant threat to the strength and wellbeing of a thriving industry. It also said that changes to Forestry Commission Wales and uncertainty with regard to secure timber supplies may damage future investment in Wales. Minister, your decision to undertake a flawed process with a business case that is factually light and almost not worth the paper it is written on is putting at risk transparency, accountability and jobs—jobs that bring £841 million into the Welsh economy and provide direct and indirect employment to some 22,000 people. For what, Minister? For an organisation whose own business case identifies failure to develop a common purpose in the new body as a real risk facing the single environment body.

Antoinette Sandbach: Wel, mae’r sylwadau hynny ar y cofnod cyhoeddus a chawsant eu gwneud yn y Sefydliad Materion Cymreig, felly nid wyf yn eu dyfynnu allan o gyd-destun. Bydd y difrod ystlysol y mae’n ymddangos bod eich gweision sifil yn derbyn yn cael effaith ar gyflogwyr mawr yng ngogledd Cymru, Weinidog. Mae Kronospan yn y Waun yn un o’r 10 cwmni gweithgynhyrchu mwyaf yng Nghymru. Mae wedi buddsoddi mwy na £30 miliwn dros y pum mlynedd diwethaf. Mae’n dweud bod y newidiadau a gynlluniwyd i Gomisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru yn fygythiad sylweddol i gryfder a lles ddiwydiant ffyniannus. Mae hefyd yn dweud y gall y newidiadau i Gomisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru ac ansicrwydd o ran sicrhau cyflenwadau pren niweidio buddsoddi yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol. Weinidog, mae eich penderfyniad i ymgymryd â phroses ddiffygiol gydag achos busnes sydd yn ffeithiol ysgafn a bron a bod yn ddiwerth yn peryglu tryloywder, atebolrwydd a swyddi—swyddi sy’n dod â £841 miliwn i mewn i economi Cymru ac yn darparu cyflogaeth uniongyrchol ac anuniongyrchol i ryw 22,000 o bobl. Ar gyfer beth, Weinidog? Ar gyfer sefydliad y mae ei achos busnes ei hun yn nodi methiant i ddatblygu diben cyffredin yn y corff newydd fel risg gwirioneddol sy’n wynebu’r corff amgylcheddol cyfunol.

What do we know about the purpose, aims or direction of this body? Those are only now being consulted upon, a fact that indicates that the cart has truly gone before the horse. As has been said by others, unless IT, pensions and VAT costs all prove to be as optimistic as hoped, the new body will quickly find it has a difficult decision to make. It will have to cut back on services or sell some of its assets, the main asset being the forests. There would also be significant capital costs for the new body.

Beth ydym yn ei wybod am y pwrpas, nodau neu gyfarwyddyd y corff hwn? Dim ond nawr y mae’r ymgynghoriad wedi dechrau o ran y materion hyn, ffaith sy’n dangos bod y drol yn wirioneddol wedi mynd o flaen y ceffyl. Fel y dywedwyd gan eraill, oni bai bod y costau TG, pensiynau a TAW i gyd yn profi i fod mor optimistaidd ag y gobeithiwyd, bydd penderfyniad anodd i’w wneud gan y corff newydd yn fuan iawn. Bydd yn rhaid iddo dorri’n ôl ar wasanaethau neu werthu rhai o’i asedau, a’r prif ased yw’r coedwigoedd. Byddai hefyd costau cyfalaf sylweddol ar gyfer y corff newydd.

Minister, there may well be a case for the merger of CCW with the Environment Agency. As Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas indicated, this may provide a great opportunity, but this business case is superficial. It does not properly assess the risks, but effectively seeks to sweep them under the carpet.

Weinidog, mae’n ddigon posibl fod achos dros uno Cyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru gydag Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd. Fel y nododd yr Arglwydd Dafydd Elis-Thomas, gall hyn fod yn gyfle gwych, ond mae’r achos busnes hwn yn arwynebol. Nid yw’n asesu’r risgiau yn gywir, ond yn effeithiol yn ceisio’u hysgubo o dan y carped.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Conclude now, please.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Gorffennwch yn awr, os gwelwch yn dda.

Antoinette Sandbach: Minister, there is time to rethink and to listen to what people are really saying about the plan and to show that you are not going to preside over an organisation where the strengths of the current environmental bodies might not be carried through to any new agency.

Antoinette Sandbach: Weinidog, mae amser i ailfeddwl ac i wrando ar yr hyn y mae pobl yn ei ddweud mewn gwirionedd am y cynllun ac i ddangos nad ydych yn mynd i lywyddu dros sefydliad lle efallai na fydd cryfderau’r cyrff amgylcheddol presennol yn cael eu trosglwyddo i unrhyw asiantaeth newydd.

William Powell: I am pleased to be taking part in this important debate today. The creation of a single environmental body for Wales to safeguard the environment has long been a policy of the Welsh Liberal Democrats. As such, the proposals outlined by the Welsh Government are ones to which we give a positive but cautious welcome. While we agree with the Welsh Conservatives that further, detailed scrutiny is required, we cannot support their motion today. Instead, we are delighted to back the Plaid Cymru amendment, acknowledging the need for that detailed and robust scrutiny. We welcome the decision of the Environment and Sustainability Committee, whose Chair has already spoken in this debate, to hold a thorough inquiry into the Welsh Government’s business case surrounding the proposed merger.

William Powell: Yr wyf yn falch i gymryd rhan yn y ddadl bwysig hon heddiw. Mae creu un corff amgylcheddol i Gymru i ddiogelu’r amgylchedd wedi bod yn rhan o bolisi Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru ers amser hir. Felly, mae’r cynigion a amlinellwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru yn rhai yr ydym yn rhoi croeso cadarnhaol ond gofalus iddynt. Er ein bod yn cytuno â’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig bod angen craffu manwl pellach, ni allwn gefnogi eu cynnig heddiw. Yn lle hynny, yr ydym yn falch iawn i gefnogi gwelliant Plaid Cymru, gan gydnabod yr angen am y gwaith craffu manwl a chadarn hynny. Yr ydym yn croesawu penderfyniad y Pwyllgor Amgylchedd a Chynaliadwyedd, y mae ei Gadeirydd eisoes wedi siarad yn y ddadl hon, i gynnal ymchwiliad trylwyr i achos busnes Llywodraeth Cymru o amgylch yr uno arfaethedig.

Anyone with any experience of the three organisations in question will understand the various ways in which their current organisational structures overlap and, sometimes, conflict with each other. The example of the Pembrokeshire power station has already been cited, but in a different context. That clearly shows the need for change. That is particularly true of the Environment Agency and the Countryside Council for Wales, which both advise the Welsh Government on climate change. Both bodies have long and established track records of providing strong and robust advice to Governments, and to individuals and companies across Wales. I see no reason why bringing both organisations together will not co-ordinate and enhance the advice that they give, particularly in these difficult times. I was present some weeks ago when the Minister undertook a visit to Melin Talgarth, where he was urged by the directors of the Green Valleys initiative to bring forward a more co-ordinated approach to environmental advice, which is critical. The First Minister also referred today in his statement on energy to the need for a co-ordinated approach to enhance investor confidence.

Bydd unrhyw un sydd â phrofiad o’r tri sefydliad dan sylw yn deall y gwahanol ffyrdd y mae eu strwythurau sefydliadol presennol yn gorgyffwrdd ac, weithiau, yn gwrthdaro â’i gilydd. Mae enghraifft yr orsaf bŵer yn sir Benfro eisoes wedi cael ei grybwyll, ond mewn cyd-destun gwahanol. Mae hynny’n dangos yn glir yr angen am newid. Mae hynny’n arbennig o wir am Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd a Chyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru, sydd ill dau yn cynghori Llywodraeth Cymru ar y newid yn yr hinsawdd. Mae gan y ddau gorff record hir a sefydledig o ddarparu cyngor cryf a chadarn i Lywodraethau, ac i unigolion a chwmnïau ledled Cymru. Ni welaf unrhyw reswm pam na fydd dod â’r ddau sefydliad at ei gilydd yn cydlynu a gwella’r cyngor y maent yn ei roi, yn enwedig yn y cyfnod anodd hwn. Yr oeddwn yn bresennol rai wythnosau yn ôl pan aeth y Gweinidog ar ymweliad â Melin Talgarth, lle’r anogwyd ef gan gyfarwyddwyr fenter y Cymoedd Gwyrdd i gyflwyno dull mwy cydgysylltiedig o gyngor amgylcheddol, sy’n hanfodol. Cyfeiriodd y Prif Weinidog heddiw hefyd yn ei ddatganiad ar ynni at yr angen am ddull cydlynol i wella hyder buddsoddwyr.

While considering the grounds for the merger, I ask those who oppose it to remember that representatives from all three bodies were involved in the consultation process. Admittedly, there may have been a lack of commercial edge to some of the discussions that took place, but there was representation. From the evidence provided, it is hard to argue against the case that, in the long term, a single environmental body would have the capacity to deliver a better service for Wales and to safeguard our environment. However, as I stated last week, we must be cautious and we must note that an enterprise of this scale has to be looked at with close attention to the detail. As has already been said, a merger of this kind involves a great deal of detail. 

Wrth ystyried y rhesymau dros uno, gofynnaf i’r rhai sy’n ei wrthwynebu i gofio bod cynrychiolwyr o’r tri chorff wedi cymryd rhan yn y broses ymgynghori. Rhaid cyfaddef ei fod yn bosibl nad oedd yr ochr masnachol yn ddigon amlwg yn rhai o’r trafodaethau a gafwyd, ond yr oedd cynrychiolaeth. O’r dystiolaeth a ddarparwyd, mae’n anodd dadlau yn erbyn yr achos y byddai, yn y tymor hir, gan un corff amgylcheddol y gallu i ddarparu gwasanaeth gwell i Gymru ac i ddiogelu ein hamgylchedd. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedais yr wythnos diwethaf, mae’n rhaid i ni fod yn ofalus ac mae’n rhaid i ni nodi bod yn rhaid edrych ar fenter o’r maint hwn yn ofalus, gan ystyried y manylion. Fel y dywedwyd eisoes, mae cyfuniad o’r math hwn yn golygu llawer iawn o fanylder.

Nick Ramsay: I thank William for giving way. You have talked, William, about the importance of looking at the detail, but our motion calls for just that. It does not rule out a merger, but it says that it has to be looked at carefully and the detail has to be addressed. I do not understand why you oppose this motion.

Nick Ramsay: Yr wyf yn diolch i William am ildio. Yr ydych wedi siarad, William, am bwysigrwydd edrych ar y manylion, ond mae ein cynnig yn galw am hynny. Nid yw’n diystyru uno, ond mae’n dweud bod yn rhaid edrych arno’n ofalus a bod yn rhaid ystyried y manylion. Nid wyf yn deall pam yr ydych yn gwrthwynebu’r cynnig hwn.

William Powell: The work that will be undertaken by the Environment and Sustainability Committee in scrutinising this will be thorough. We had a discussion this morning on the proposals that we will take forward and the structure of our inquiry. Therefore, I hope that the Member has confidence in the work of that committee and its members, because we intend to take it seriously.

William Powell: Bydd gwaith trylwyr yn cael ei wneud gan y Pwyllgor Amgylchedd a Chynaliadwyedd wrth graffu ar hwn. Cawsom drafodaeth y bore yma ar y cynigion y byddwn yn bwrw ymlaen â nhw a strwythur ein hymchwiliad. Felly, yr wyf yn gobeithio bod yr Aelod yn hyderus o ran gwaith y pwyllgor hwnnw a’i aelodau, gan ein bod yn bwriadu ei gymryd o ddifrif.

Those who I have spoken to with a history in the Forestry Commission also suggest that there is a need for additional joined-up thinking in respect of the way in which it goes about its business. That needs to be recognised by all concerned. For far too long, these three bodies have been operating in parallel to one another and, sometimes, even brushing up against each other by providing conflicting advice. That is very unhelpful for the clarity of investor confidence in the energy sector and in other development control areas.

Mae’r bobl yr wyf wedi siarad â nhw sydd â chefndir yn y Comisiwn Coedwigaeth hefyd yn awgrymu bod angen meddwl mewn ffordd cydgysylltiedig o ran y ffordd y mae’n gweithredu. Y mae angen i bawb dan sylw gydnabod hynny. Am amser rhy hir, mae’r tri chorff wedi bod yn gweithredu yn gyfochrog i’w gilydd ac, weithiau, hyd yn oed yn brwsio i fyny yn erbyn ei gilydd trwy ddarparu cyngor sy’n gwrthdaro. Nid yw hynny’n fuddiol o ran eglurder hyder buddsoddwyr yn y sector ynni ac mewn ardaloedd rheoli datblygu eraill.

In conclusion, that is the reason why we are supporting this merger in principle. The devil is in the detail, and I have confidence that my colleagues on the Environment and Sustainability Committee will take that forward and scrutinise the business case as it needs to be done.

I gloi, dyna’r rheswm pam yr ydym yn cefnogi’r uno hwn mewn egwyddor. Y manylion fydd yn bwysig, ac yr wyf yn hyderus y bydd fy nghydweithwyr ar y Pwyllgor Amgylchedd a Chynaliadwyedd yn bwrw ymlaen â hynny ac yn craffu ar yr achos busnes yn y ffordd sydd angen ei wneud.

William Graham: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, for calling me today. In my remarks, I wish to focus on a personal plea for retaining an independent forestry commission for Wales. Many of us here today will recall the ill-thought-out policy to abolish the Welsh Development Agency and transfer its functions into the Welsh Government. It is widely acknowledged that the negative impact of that policy has not been properly addressed to date. This proposal to create a single environment body by bringing together the functions of the Environment Agency Wales, the Countryside Council for Wales and Forestry Commission Wales is equally ill-conceived. Removing the independence of Forestry Commission Wales mirrors the error of abolishing the WDA. The independence of Forestry Commission Wales allows it to effectively engage with the private sector. To the detriment of the economic and social development of Wales, this is something the Welsh Government continually fails to do.

William Graham: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd, am fy ngalw heddiw. Yn fy sylwadau, hoffwn ganolbwyntio ar ble personol i gadw comisiwn coedwigaeth annibynnol i Gymru. Bydd llawer ohonom yma heddiw yn cofio’r polisi byrbwyll i ddiddymu Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru a throsglwyddo ei swyddogaethau i mewn i Lywodraeth Cymru. Cydnabyddir yn eang nad yw effaith negyddol y polisi hwnnw wedi cael y sylw priodol hyd yn hyn. Mae’r cynnig hwn i greu un corff amgylcheddol drwy ddod â swyddogaethau Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru, Cyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru a Chomisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru yr un mor anghywir. Mae cael gwared ar annibyniaeth Gomisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru yn adlewyrchu’r camgymeriad o ddiddymu’r ADC. Mae annibyniaeth Gomisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru yn ei alluogi i ymgysylltu’n effeithiol â’r sector preifat. Er anfantais i ddatblygiad economaidd a chymdeithasol Cymru, mae hyn yn rhywbeth y mae Llywodraeth Cymru, tro ar ôl tro, yn methu â gwneud.

Forestry Commission Wales has a vital function. It has already delivered on carbon reduction, extended the provision for recreation and enhanced biodiversity. The Environment Agency Wales and the Countryside Council for Wales are not about delivery; they are concerned with regulation.

Mae gan Gomisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru swyddogaeth hanfodol. Mae eisoes wedi gweithredu i leihau carbon, wedi ymestyn y ddarpariaeth ar gyfer hamdden a gwell bioamrywiaeth. Nid darpariaeth yw gwaith Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru na Chyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru; maent yn ymwneud â rheoleiddio.

One of the major reasons why the FCW should remain independent is to protect its ability to address issues, especially environmental ones, as they arise. One of the largest challenges our environment faces is climate change. The latest predictions for Wales indicate that summers will become warmer by 2 to 3 degrees C, and that winters will become milder, with more frost-free days. This will result in an increased growing period with productivity expected to rise by 2 to 4 cu m per hectare per year. Drier summers with an average decrease of 15 per cent in summer precipitation will increase the risks of forest fires, while winter precipitation will increase by 20 per cent. There will be an increase in the frequency of high-intensity rainfall events, which will greatly increase the risk of flooding, landslip and soil erosion. The frequency of strong wind events will also increase, resulting in more storm damage, especially as much of our forests are on uplands and grow in poor soils. The increased incidence of pests and diseases is already occurring in Wales, and further pests and diseases are likely to become established as a result of climate change. The limited range of species used in Wales puts our forests at risk.

Un o’r prif resymau pam y dylai Comisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru aros yn annibynnol yw diogelu ei allu i fynd i’r afael â materion, yn enwedig rhai amgylcheddol, wrth iddynt godi. Un o’r heriau mwyaf sy’n wynebu ein hamgylchedd yw newid yn yr hinsawdd. Mae’r rhagfynegiadau diweddaraf ar gyfer Cymru yn dangos y bydd hafau yn gynhesach gan 2 i 3 gradd C, ac y bydd gaeafau yn fwynach, gyda mwy o ddiwrnodau di-rew. Bydd hyn yn arwain at gyfnod tyfu hirach gyda’r disgwyl y bydd cynhyrchiant yn codi o 2 i 4 m cu yr hectar y flwyddyn. Bydd hafau sychach gyda gostyngiad cyfartalog o 15 y cant mewn dyddodiad haf yn cynyddu’r risg o danau coedwig, tra bydd dyddodiad y gaeaf yn cynyddu o 20 y cant. Bydd cynnydd yn amlder digwyddiadau glawiad dwys, a fydd yn cynyddu’r risg o lifogydd, tirlithriad ac erydiad pridd yn fawr. Bydd amlder digwyddiadau gwynt cryf hefyd yn cynyddu, gan arwain at fwy o ddifrod storm, yn enwedig gan fod llawer o’n coedwigoedd ar ucheldiroedd ac yn tyfu mewn pridd gwael. Mae achosion cynyddol o blâu a chlefydau eisoes yn digwydd yng Nghymru, ac mae clefydau a phlâu pellach yn debygol o ymsefydlu o ganlyniad i newid yn yr hinsawdd. Mae’r ystod gyfyngedig o rywogaethau a ddefnyddir yng Nghymru yn peryglu’n coedwigoedd.

This proposal places at risk a vast renewable economic resource that is significantly underutilised. If sustainably managed, our forests and woodlands have the capacity to provide more timber and biomass without compromising other ecosystems. FCW currently holds a unique position, and we should not place in jeopardy the effective development of local timber processing industries, which could double the economic benefits of the forestry sector, increase rural employment and contribute to a major reduction in our carbon footprint.

Mae’r cynnig hwn yn rhoi mewn perygl adnodd economaidd adnewyddadwy enfawr sy’n cael ei danddefnyddio’n sylweddol. Pe bai’n cael ei reoli’n gynaliadwy, byddai gan ein coedwigoedd a choetiroedd y capasiti i ddarparu mwy o bren a biomas heb beryglu ein hecosystemau eraill. Ar hyn o bryd, mae CCC mewn sefyllfa unigryw, ac ni ddylem beryglu datblygiad effeithiol diwydiannau prosesu pren lleol, a allai ddyblu manteision economaidd y sector coedwigaeth, cynyddu cyflogaeth yng nghefn gwlad a chyfrannu at ostyngiad sylweddol yn ein hôl troed carbon.

It is estimated that the gross output of the Welsh forestry industry is more than £400 million per year. These outputs come from the full range of industries, from large-scale international companies producing wood pulp, paper and panel board, to small, family businesses making fencing and garden furniture. Total timber production in Wales is predicted to increase substantially by the end of the next decade, as forests reach maturity. Much of this increase will come from coniferous woodlands planted by the private sector between the 1960s and late 1980s. Maximising the value to the economy from these woodlands will largely depend on innovative techniques for processing this wood.

Amcangyfrifir bod allbwn gros diwydiant coedwigaeth Cymru yn fwy na £400 miliwn y flwyddyn. Mae’r rhain yn allbynnau sy’n dod o’r ystod lawn o ddiwydiannau, o gwmnïau rhyngwladol mawr sy’n cynhyrchu mwydion coed, papur a phaneli, i fusnesau bach, teuluol sy’n gwneud ffensys a dodrefn i’r ardd. Rhagwelir y bydd cyfanswm cynhyrchiant pren yng Nghymru yn cynyddu’n sylweddol erbyn diwedd y degawd nesaf, wrth i goedwigoedd aeddfedu. Bydd llawer o’r cynnydd hwn yn dod o goetiroedd coniffer a blannwyd gan y sector preifat rhwng y 1960au a’r 1980au hwyr. Bydd sicrhau’r gwerth mwyaf i’r economi o’r coetiroedd hyn yn dibynnu i raddau helaeth ar dechnegau arloesol o brosesu’r pren hwn.

The proposal to create a single environment body that removes the independence of Forestry Commission Wales will stifle the innovation that we need to develop and sustain the future of our forests, increase rural businesses and employment opportunities, in addition to improving biodiversity and reducing our carbon footprint.

Bydd y cynnig i greu un corff amgylcheddol sy’n cael gwared ar annibyniaeth Gomisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru yn amharu ar yr arloesedd sydd ei hangen er mwyn i ni ddatblygu a chynnal dyfodol ein coedwigoedd, cynyddu busnesau a chyfleoedd cyflogaeth yng nghefn gwlad, yn ogystal â gwella bioamrywiaeth a lleihau ein hôl troed carbon.

Kenneth Skates: I start by thanking Dafydd Elis-Thomas for his eloquent contribution and for William Graham’s insightful contribution. I would like to raise an issue that is important to many of my constituents, which is the need to ensure that the proposed single environment body has the interests of the wood-based industries at the very heart of its work. Bringing together the role and functions of environmental bodies such as Environment Agency Wales and the Countryside Council for Wales has obvious and significant benefits, which, I am surprised, have been ignored by some Conservatives, namely those who also dogmatically opposed the recent extension of an area of outstanding natural beauty.

Kenneth Skates: Dechreuaf drwy ddiolch i Dafydd Elis-Thomas am ei gyfraniad huawdl ac am gyfraniad graff William Graham. Hoffwn godi mater sy’n bwysig i lawer o fy etholwyr, sef yr angen i sicrhau bod buddion y diwydiannau sy’n seiliedig ar bren wrth wraidd gwaith y corff amgylcheddol unedig. Mae dwyn ynghyd rôl a swyddogaethau cyrff amgylcheddol megis Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru a Chyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru yn dod â manteision amlwg ac arwyddocaol, sydd, yr wyf yn synnu, wedi cael eu hanwybyddu gan rai Ceidwadwyr, sef y rhai oedd hefyd yn ddogmatig yn gwrthwynebu estyniad diweddar ardal o harddwch naturiol eithriadol.

3.45 p.m.

Like others, I want to ensure that the role and functions of forestry and sustainable wood production for industry, as undertaken by Forestry Commission Wales, are maintained following the merger. Many businesses, such as Kronospan in my constituency, rely heavily upon the responsible management of our forests. Across Wales, more than 10,000 people are employed in the forestry sector. In excess of £840 million is generated annually by the sector. At the moment, trees cover 15 per cent of Wales’s land mass; that figure should soon increase to 20 per cent.

Fel eraill, yr wyf am sicrhau bod rôl a swyddogaethau coedwigaeth a chynhyrchu pren cynaliadwy ar gyfer diwydiant, fel y gwnaeth Comisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru, yn cael eu cynnal yn dilyn yr uno. Mae llawer o fusnesau, fel Kronospan yn fy etholaeth i, yn dibynnu’n fawr ar reolaeth gyfrifol ein coedwigoedd. Ar draws Cymru, mae mwy na 10,000 o bobl yn cael eu cyflogi yn y sector coedwigaeth. Cynhyrcha’r sector fwy na £840 miliwn bob blwyddyn. Ar hyn o bryd, mae coed yn tyfu ar 15 y cant o arwynebedd tir Cymru; dylai’r ffigur honno gynyddu’n fuan i 20 y cant.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Will you give way?

Andrew R.T. Davies: A wnewch chi ildio?

Kenneth Skates: Not at the moment. Forestry has real potential to grow the green economy. It also possesses unparalleled recreational and biodiversity benefits. It should, therefore, be part of the single environmental body, as outlined comprehensively by Bill Powell. The mutually supportive relationship between Forestry Commission Wales and the private sector is a real credit, but we should also be proud of the fact that around 60 per cent of the wood coming into Welsh sawmills is from the public sector.

Kenneth Skates: Ddim ar hyn o bryd. Mae gan goedwigaeth botensial gwirioneddol i dyfu’r economi werdd. Mae hefyd yn meddu ar fanteision hamdden a bioamrywiaeth ddigyffelyb. Dylai, felly, fod yn rhan o’r corff amgylcheddol sengl, fel yr amlinellodd Bill Powell yn gynhwysfawr. Mae’r berthynas gydgefnogol rhwng Comisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru a’r sector preifat yn gredyd go iawn, ond dylem hefyd fod yn falch o’r ffaith bod tua 60 y cant o’r coed sy’n dod i mewn i felinau llifio Cymreig yn dod o’r sector cyhoeddus.

While much of the work of the new organisation will be concerned with the vital job of environmental regulation, perhaps the Minister can reassure Members that this will not be at the expense of an important national industry. Forestry is a low-profit activity, and needs careful strategic work to put it on a more sustainable and financially stable footing. As this work will primarily be done by the new single environment body, I feel that it is vital to flag that point up in this debate. One of the important services that I am keen to see protected is forest research, which is currently paid for by the Westminster Government and is undertaken at a UK level. I urge the Minister to ensure an adequate financial transfer from the UK Government to facilitate this work and to obtain guarantees from the UK Treasury that this change will not require compensation to be paid because of UK forestry costs that might arise as a result of a Welsh merger.

Er y bydd llawer o waith y sefydliad newydd yn ymwneud â’r gwaith hanfodol o reoleiddio amgylcheddol, efallai y gall y Gweinidog roi sicrwydd i Aelodau na fydd hyn ar draul diwydiant cenedlaethol pwysig. Mae coedwigaeth yn weithgaredd ag elw isel, ac mae angen gwaith strategol gofalus i’w roi ar sylfaen fwy cynaliadwy a sefydlog yn ariannol. Gan mai’r corff amgylcheddol sengl newydd a wnaiff y gwaith hwn yn bennaf, teimlaf ei bod yn hollbwysig i dynnu sylw at hynny yn y ddadl hon. Un o’r gwasanaethau pwysig yr wyf yn awyddus i weld yn cael eu gwarchod yw ymchwil am goedwig, y mae Llywodraeth San Steffan yn talu amdano ar hyn o bryd ac sy’n cael ei wneud ar lefel y DU. Anogaf y Gweinidog i sicrhau bod trosglwyddiad ariannol digonol wrth Lywodraeth y DU i hwyluso’r gwaith hwn ac i gael gwarantau gan Drysorlys y DU na fydd y newid hwn yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i dalu iawndal oherwydd costau coedwigaeth y DU a allai godi o ganlyniad i uno yng Nghymru.

Things are already difficult for manufacturers that use wood, as a result of the economic climate and the UK Government’s subsidies to compensate electricity generators burning wood under the renewables obligation. Paying electricity generators to burn the types of products that manufacturers such as the wood panel industry use has already distorted the market in wood supplies, to the disadvantage of businesses in my constituency. Intense pressure on domestic supplies is inevitable, and the risk for sectors such as the wood panel industry in my constituency is that this squeeze on price and volume may not be helped if the interests of that sector are not adequately prepared for by the single environment body. I urge the Welsh Government to conduct a review of the wood production industry in Wales and to examine the network of policy challenges that we need to face in the coming years to protect the industries that rely heavily on wood production. This merger must seek to balance a need to protect the environment with the necessity of ensuring that businesses that use wood have a regular supply of it. We need to prepare to develop a bright future for the sector to attract new and highly skilled jobs to the industry in north-east Wales. A new single environment body will have a central role to play in that.

Mae pethau eisoes yn anodd ar gyfer gweithgynhyrchwyr sy’n defnyddio pren, yn sgil yr hinsawdd economaidd a chymorthdaliadau Llywodraeth y DU i roi iawndaliadau i eneraduron trydan yn llosgi coed o dan y rhwymedigaeth ynni adnewyddadwy. Mae talu generaduron trydan i losgi’r mathau o gynnyrch y mae gweithgynhyrchwyr fel y diwydiant paneli pren yn defnyddio eisoes wedi ystumio’r farchnad mewn cyflenwadau pren, nid er lles busnesau yn fy etholaeth. Mae pwysau dwys ar gyflenwadau domestig yn anochel, a’r risg ar gyfer sectorau fel y diwydiant paneli pren yn fy etholaeth yw na fydd y wasgfa hon ar bris a chyfaint yn cael ei helpu os nad yw’r corff amgylcheddol sengl yn paratoi’n ddigonol ar gyfer buddiannau’r sector hwnnw. Anogaf Lywodraeth Cymru i gynnal adolygiad o’r diwydiant cynhyrchu coed yng Nghymru ac i edrych ar y rhwydwaith o heriau polisi fydd angen i ni eu hwynebu yn y blynyddoedd i ddod i amddiffyn y diwydiannau sy’n dibynnu’n helaeth ar gynhyrchu pren. Mae’n rhaid i’r uno hwn geisio cydbwyso angen i warchod yr amgylchedd gyda’r angen i sicrhau bod busnesau sy’n defnyddio pren yn cael cyflenwad rheolaidd ohono. Mae angen i ni baratoi er mwyn datblygu dyfodol disglair i’r sector i ddenu swyddi newydd a medrus iawn i’r diwydiant yn y gogledd-ddwyrain. Bydd gan gorff amgylcheddol sengl newydd ran ganolog i’w chwarae yn hynny.

Over the last few years, a specialist team of civil servants who work for the Forestry Commission has developed a close understanding of the commercial landscape for companies in this sector and has worked with those companies in a commercially astute way. In my view, the sharp commercial focus that characterises much of the—

Dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf, mae tîm arbenigol o weision sifil sy’n gweithio i’r Comisiwn Coedwigaeth wedi datblygu dealltwriaeth agos o dirwedd fasnachol y cwmnïau yn y sector hwn ac wedi gweithio gyda’r cwmnïau hynny mewn ffordd fasnachol graff. Yn fy marn i, mae’r ffocws masnachol miniog sy’n nodweddu llawer o’r—

Nick Ramsay: Will you give way?

Nick Ramsay: A wnewch chi ildio?

Kenneth Skates: Yes, absolutely.

Kenneth Skates: Gwnaf, wrth gwrs.

Nick Ramsay: Thank you for giving way on that point. [Laughter.] It is a very interesting contribution, and I know that time is pressing. I appreciate that you support the merger in principle. However, given what you have said, if you, as an Assembly Member, were not convinced that the issues that you have raised have been addressed, would you oppose the merger of the three bodies into a single environmental body?

Nick Ramsay: Diolch i chi am ildio ar y pwynt hwnnw. [Chwerthin.] Mae’n gyfraniad diddorol iawn, a gwn fod amser yn brin. Yr wyf yn sylweddoli eich bod yn cefnogi’r uno mewn egwyddor. Fodd bynnag, o ystyried yr hyn yr ydych wedi’i ddweud, pe baech chi, fel Aelod Cynulliad, heb gael eich argyhoeddi bod y materion yr ydych wedi’u codi wedi cael sylw, a fyddech yn gwrthwynebu uno’r tri chorff yn un corff amgylcheddol?

Kenneth Skates: I have every confidence in this merger and, most importantly, in this Minister. I agree with Simon Thomas, who made a crucial point on one body for the environment. That has not been adequately addressed, I must say. It is a constructive concept that is opposed, unfortunately, by too many Conservatives.

Kenneth Skates: Mae gennyf bob ffydd yn yr uno hwn ac, yn bwysicaf oll, yn y Gweinidog hwn. Yr wyf yn cytuno â Simon Thomas, a wnaeth bwynt hollbwysig ar un corff ar gyfer yr amgylchedd. Nid yw hynny wedi cael sylw digonol, mae’n rhaid i mi ddweud. Mae’n gysyniad adeiladol sy’n cael ei wrthwynebu, yn anffodus, gan ormod o Geidwadwyr.

Forestry needs a strong voice in Wales, with policy and business activity being as seamless as possible. The new single environment body must take on that role and be a champion for Welsh wood.

Mae coedwigaeth angen llais cryf yng Nghymru, gyda pholisi a gweithgaredd busnes mor ddi-dor ag y bo modd. Mae’n rhaid i’r corff amgylcheddol sengl newydd ymgymryd â’r rôl honno a bod yn bencampwr ar gyfer pren Cymreig.

Mark Isherwood: There is concern among large and small businesses that the announcement of this single environmental body fails to illustrate that there is joined-up Welsh government and fails to address the concerns that those businesses have. We have heard that those concerns might be addressed if the large and small organisations are engaged with in a way that they say that they have not been thus far. We have heard reference to Kronospan in Chirk, which is in my region; my colleague Antoinette Sandbach has referred to this, and Ken Skates has also alluded to it. The site in Chirk is its only UK site. It employs over 600 people. It says that the importance of its relationship with Forestry Commission Wales to it cannot be overstated. In the last 12 months, it has purchased around a quarter of Forestry Commission Wales’s annual harvest of round timber. Forestry Commission Wales ensures sustainability of supply and biodiversity while maintaining successful relationships with the commercial forestry sector. However, the company adds that forestry industries are going through a period of major uncertainty, with major threats to supply across the whole of the UK. As Antoinette Sandbach said, there is uncertainty surrounding secure timber supplies, and changes to Forestry Commission Wales may damage future investment in Wales, which is critical to the future wellbeing of this nation, and there will be a dilution of the customer-facing commercial awareness displayed by Forestry Commission Wales when it is subsumed into a single environmental body. That was said to Members last week. These are not old concerns that have been addressed prior to the Minister’s announcement last week.

Mark Isherwood: Mae pryder ymhlith busnesau bach a mawr nad yw’r cyhoeddiad am y corff amgylcheddol sengl hwn yn dangos bod llywodraeth gydgysylltiedig gan Gymru nac yn mynd i’r afael â phryderon y busnesau hynny. Yr ydym wedi clywed y gellid mynd i’r afael â’r pryderon hynny os ymgysylltir â’r sefydliadau mawr a bach mewn ffordd maent yn dweud sydd heb ddigwydd hyd yn hyn. Yr ydym wedi clywed cyfeiriad at Kronospan yn y Waun, sydd yn fy rhanbarth i; cyfeiriodd fy nghyd-Aelod Antoinette Sandbach ato, a chyfeiriodd Ken Skates ato hefyd. Y safle yn y Waun yw ei unig safle yn y DU. Mae’n cyflogi dros 600 o bobl. Mae’n dweud na all pwysigrwydd ei berthynas â Chomisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru gael ei orbwysleisio. Yn y 12 mis diwethaf, mae wedi prynu tua chwarter cynhaeaf blynyddol Comisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru o bren crwn. Mae Comisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru yn sicrhau cynaliadwyedd y cyflenwad a bioamrywiaeth wrth gynnal perthnasau llwyddiannus gyda’r sector coedwigaeth fasnachol. Fodd bynnag, mae’r cwmni yn ychwanegu bod diwydiannau coedwigaeth yn mynd trwy gyfnod o ansicrwydd mawr, â bygythiadau mawr i gyflenwi ar draws y DU cyfan. Fel y dywedodd Antoinette Sandbach, mae ansicrwydd o amgylch cyflenwadau pren diogel, a gall newidiadau i Gomisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru niweidio buddsoddiad yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol, sy’n hanfodol i les y genedl hon yn y dyfodol, ac fe fydd yr ymwybyddiaeth fasnachol wrth ddelio â chwsmeriaid a ddangosir gan Gomisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru yn gwanhau pan gaiff ei gynnwys mewn corff amgylcheddol sengl. Dywedwyd hynny wrth Aelodau’r wythnos diwethaf. Nid yw’r rhain yn hen bryderon sydd wedi cael sylw cyn cyhoeddiad y Gweinidog yr wythnos diwethaf.

I have also been e-mailed by a small business, a forest nursery located on the Welsh border, near Wrexham. It expresses concerns about the imminent proposed merger, as it then was, of Forestry Commission Wales with Environment Agency Wales and the Countryside Council for Wales, into a single environmental body. It says that the economic value of the timber production side of forestry has been forgotten, and that only the ecological and environmental issues are addressed. It says that this decision appears to have been rushed through without many politicians having had the opportunity to consider the issues from an economic and production point of view. It says that the nature of commercial production and sales of timber and non-timber forest products will require a specialised and different skill set to that required for the maintenance of unproductive forests or countryside management and regulation. It says that forestry is a valuable industry in the Welsh economy, employing over 10,000 people in Wales, and generating over £840 million annually. It says that the presence of a viable and thriving eco-industry such as forestry, efficiently producing such a variety of saleable products—including sawn timber, wood chips, fibres and fuel wood—from a well-managed countryside is a very powerful tool for a small nation to have. As it says, Wales should take pride in its ability to manage its natural resources well. We need to be economically sustainable as a country in order to be able to fund any environmental or conservation-based work. A thriving forestry industry is the first, most obvious, relevant and entirely appropriate option to use. Wales, it says, must not fail its forestry businesses by missing the point and making this decision too lightly or quickly, whereby the merger, as currently planned, will overlook the economic value that commercial forests can provide to Wales. That is the voice of the sector. The company concludes by saying that it very much hopes that the decision will be postponed—this e-mail came to me on the day before the decision was announced—until Assembly Members and the public have had a chance to consider the matter in a more balanced way. The decision was premature and clearly unbalanced, and it needs further attention before it is imposed on the forestry sector in Wales.

Yn ogystal mae busnes bach wedi fy e-bostio i, meithrinfa coedwig ar y ffin Gymreig, ger Wrecsam. Mae’n mynegi pryderon am yr uno arfaethedig ar ddod, fel yr oedd bryd hynny, o Gomisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru gydag Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru a Chyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru, i gorff amgylcheddol sengl. Mae’n dweud bod gwerth economaidd ochr cynhyrchu pren coedwigaeth wedi cael ei anghofio, ac mai dim ond y materion ecolegol ac amgylcheddol sydd yn cael sylw. Mae’n dweud yr ymddengys fod y penderfyniad hwn wedi digwydd ar garlam heb fod llawer o wleidyddion wedi cael y cyfle i ystyried y materion o safbwynt economaidd a chynhyrchu. Mae’n dweud y bydd natur cynhyrchu masnachol a gwerthiannau cynnyrch pren a di-goed coedwigoedd angen sgiliau arbenigol a gwahanol i’r rhai sydd eu hangen ar gyfer cynnal a chadw coedwigoedd anghynhyrchiol neu reoli a rheoleiddio cefn gwlad. Mae’n dweud bod coedwigaeth yn ddiwydiant gwerthfawr yn economi Cymru, yn cyflogi dros 10,000 o bobl yng Nghymru, ac yn cynhyrchu dros £840 miliwn yn flynyddol. Mae’n dweud bod presenoldeb eco-ddiwydiant hyfyw a ffyniannus fel coedwigaeth, yn effeithlon yn cynhyrchu cymaint o amrywiaeth o gynhyrchion y gellir eu gwerthu-gan gynnwys pren wedi’i lifio, sglodion pren, ffibrau a thanwydd pren-o gefn gwlad a reolir yn dda yn arf pwerus iawn ar gyfer cenedl fechan. Fel y mae’n dweud, dylai Cymru ymfalchïo yn ei gallu i reoli ei hadnoddau naturiol yn dda. Mae angen i ni fod yn gynaliadwy yn economaidd fel gwlad er mwyn gallu ariannu unrhyw waith sy’n seiliedig ar yr amgylchedd neu gadwraeth. Diwydiant coedwigaeth ffyniannus yw’r opsiwn cyntaf, mwyaf amlwg, perthnasol a chwbl briodol i’w defnyddio. Mae’n dweud na ddylai Cymru fethu ei busnesau coedwigaeth drwy fethu’r pwynt a gwneud y penderfyniad hwn yn rhy ysgafn neu gyflym, lle bydd yr uno, fel y’i cynlluniwyd ar hyn o bryd, yn edrych heibio’r gwerth economaidd y gall coedwigoedd masnachol ei ddarparu i Gymru. Dyna yw llais y sector. Mae’r cwmni’n cloi drwy ddweud ei fod yn gobeithio’n fawr iawn y caiff y penderfyniad ei ohirio—cefais yr e-bost ar y diwrnod cyn i’r penderfyniad gael ei gyhoeddi—nes bod Aelodau’r Cynulliad a’r cyhoedd wedi cael cyfle i ystyried y mater mewn ffordd llawer yn fwy cytbwys. Yr oedd y penderfyniad yn gynamserol ac yn amlwg yn anghytbwys, ac mae angen rhoi sylw pellach cyn iddo gael ei orfodi ar y sector coedwigaeth yng Nghymru.

Julie James: I disagree with everything that Mark Isherwood has just said, apart from one fact, which is that Wales should be very proud of its environmental credentials. We certainly should be. I very much support amendment 1 to this motion, and welcome the Government’s decision to consult on further proposals as to the full extent of the functions, powers and duties of the new single environmental body. All of us who have worked in this area for a very long time know that the distinction between the three bodies has caused several problems. I welcome the former Minister’s work in this area, as well as that of the One Wales Government. This is a fitting culmination to that work. I also welcome the commitment of the Chair of the Environment and Sustainability Committee to thorough scrutiny of the further proposals in relation to this single environmental body. However, we should look at this issue in terms of the overarching aims of the proposal. The first aim is to deliver better outcomes for our environment through an integrated ecosystems approach. There is growing recognition of the ecosystems approach, following Wales’s lead, across Europe and the world. For those Members who seem to have forgotten, particularly those on the Conservative benches, the ecosystems approach is a holistic and integrated approach to managing our whole natural environment, and the outcome is an improvement in the health of the underlying ecosystem—not the management of it, or the management of the degradation of it, but an improvement in the underlying health of the ecosystem, and that delivers sustainability, reliability and resilience, all of which are important to the very important forestry industries that you are right to be concerned about, but which, I am sure, will thrive under this integrated system.

Julie James: Yr wyf yn anghytuno â phopeth mae Mark Isherwood newydd ei ddweud, ar wahân i un ffaith, sef y dylai Cymru fod yn falch iawn o’i rhinweddau amgylcheddol. Yn sicr dylem fod. Yr wyf yn cefnogi gwelliant 1 i’r cynnig hwn yn fawr iawn, ac yn croesawu penderfyniad y Llywodraeth i ymgynghori ar gynigion pellach ynghylch graddau llawn y swyddogaethau, pwerau a dyletswyddau’r corff amgylcheddol sengl newydd. Mae pob un ohonom sydd wedi gweithio yn y maes hwn am amser hir iawn yn gwybod bod y gwahaniaeth rhwng y tri chorff wedi achosi nifer o broblemau. Yr wyf yn croesawu gwaith y cyn Weinidog yn y maes hwn, yn ogystal â gwaith Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un. Mae hwn yn benllanw addas i’r gwaith hwnnw. Yr wyf hefyd yn croesawu ymrwymiad Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Amgylchedd a Chynaliadwyedd i graffu yn drylwyr ar y cynigion pellach mewn perthynas â’r corff amgylcheddol sengl hwn. Fodd bynnag, dylem edrych ar y mater o safbwynt amcanion cyffredinol y cynnig. Y nod cyntaf yw sicrhau gwell canlyniadau ar gyfer ein hamgylchedd trwy ddull ecosystemau integredig. Ceir cydnabyddiaeth gynyddol o’r dull ecosystemau, yn dilyn arweiniad Cymru, ledled Ewrop a’r byd. Ar gyfer yr Aelodau hynny sy’n ymddangos i fod wedi anghofio, yn enwedig y rhai ar feinciau’r Ceidwadwyr, mae’r dull ecosystemau yn ddull cyfannol ac integredig o reoli ein hamgylchedd naturiol i gyd, a’r canlyniad yw gwelliant yn iechyd yr ecosystem gwaelodol—nid y rheoli sydd arno, neu reolaeth ei ddirywiad, ond gwelliant yn iechyd gwaelodol yr ecosystem, ac mae hynny’n darparu cynaliadwyedd, dibynadwyedd a gwydnwch, a phob un ohonynt yn bwysig i’r diwydiannau coedwigaeth pwysig iawn yr ydych yn iawn i fod yn bryderus amdanynt, ond byddant, yr wyf yn sicr, yn ffynnu o dan y system integredig hon.

The second aim, which I think that we could all sign up to, is to deliver better value for money. I also know about the Pembrokeshire power station incident, but I take an entirely different lesson from it to those on the Conservative benches. I thought that the issue was clearly one of a lack of cohesive legal advice and of a cohesive set of questions asked of those bodies so that a very important development for Wales could be managed properly, in a coherent and sustainable fashion. That was achieved, eventually, but after great delay and at great cost and worry, which could be avoided by having a single environmental body approach.

Yr ail nod, a chredaf y gallem i gyd gytuno arno, yw darparu gwerth gwell am arian. Yr wyf hefyd yn gwybod am y digwyddiad gyda’r orsaf bŵer yn Sir Benfro, ond yr wyf  i’n cymryd gwers hollol wahanol i’r un a gymerodd y sawl sydd ar feinciau’r Ceidwadwyr. Yr oeddwn i’n meddwl bod y mater yn amlwg yn un o ddiffyg cyngor cyfreithiol cydlynol ac o ofyn set gydlynol o gwestiynau i’r cyrff hynny fel y gallai datblygiad pwysig iawn i Gymru gael ei reoli’n briodol, mewn modd cydlynol a chynaliadwy. Cafodd hynny ei gyflawni, yn y pen draw, ond ar ôl oedi mawr a gyda chost a gofid mawr, a allai fod wedi cael ei osgoi drwy gael dull corff amgylcheddol sengl.

Third, and not least, is the ability to take decisions that affect the Welsh natural environment and economic decisions associated with the sustainable management and development of that environment here in Wales. That is a very important part of this decision, because this is the devolution of many of these decisions to Wales so that we can control decisions about our environment in a sustainable and coherent way. I therefore very much welcome the Environment and Sustainability Committee’s decision to scrutinise thoroughly the full range of proposals for the possibilities for functions, powers and duties, and the base economic case that supports those functions, powers and duties. I think that we will deliver the outcomes that we are all entitled to expect and which are in the best interests of the Welsh national environment and all of its peoples.

Yn drydydd, ac nid y lleiaf, yw’r gallu i wneud penderfyniadau sy’n effeithio ar amgylchedd naturiol Cymru a phenderfyniadau economaidd sy’n gysylltiedig â rheoli a datblygu’r amgylchedd hwnnw yma yng Nghymru yn gynaliadwy. Mae hynny’n rhan bwysig iawn o’r penderfyniad hwn, gan fod hwn yn datganoli llawer o’r penderfyniadau hyn i Gymru fel y gallwn reoli penderfyniadau am ein hamgylchedd mewn ffordd gynaliadwy a chydlynol. Yr wyf yn croesawu’n fawr, felly,  benderfyniad y Pwyllgor Amgylchedd a Chynaliadwyedd i graffu yn drylwyr ystod lawn y cynigion ar gyfer y posibiliadau ar gyfer swyddogaethau, pwerau a dyletswyddau, a’r achos economaidd sylfaenol sy’n cefnogi’r swyddogaethau, pwerau a dyletswyddau hynny. Yr wyf yn meddwl y byddwn yn cyflawni’r canlyniadau sydd gennym i gyd hawl i’w disgwyl ac sydd er lles gorau amgylchedd cenedlaethol Cymru a’i holl bobloedd.

Keith Davies: Hoffwn ddiolch i’r Ceidwadwyr am gyflwyno’r ddadl hon heddiw. Ni fyddaf yn cefnogi’u cynnig, ond byddaf yn cefnogi gwelliant Plaid Cymru.

Keith Davies: I would like to thank the Conservatives for bringing forward this debate today. I will not support their motion, but I will support the Plaid Cymru amendment.

Yr oedd yr ymrwymiad i edrych ar sefydlu un corff newydd wedi ei gynnwys yn ein maniffesto ac mae’n awr yn ein rhaglen lywodraethu. Mae tîm a reolwyd gan swyddogion wedi paratoi achos busnes i arolygu opsiynau gwahanol i gyflenwi’r amcan. Rhaid nodi, sylweddoli, a bod yn glir—crëwyd y tîm gan aelodau Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, Comisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru a Chyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru. Yn bellach, gwyliwyd gwaith y tîm gan fwrdd rhaglen ac arno brif weithredwyr y tri chorff fel aelodau gweithredol, fel y soniodd yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas.

The commitment to look at establishing a new single body was included in our manifesto and it is now in our programme for government. A team managed by officials has prepared a business case to look at various options to achieve the aim. We must note, realise and be clear that the team was created by members of the Environment Agency, the Forestry Commission Wales and the Countryside Council for Wales. By now, the work of the team is being monitored by the programme board, which includes the chief executives of the three bodies as executive members, as Lord Elis-Thomas mentioned.

Wedi gorffen yr achos busnes, argymell y tîm oedd creu un corf sengl. Yr wyf yn cytuno â’r penderfyniad, ac yn sylweddoli bod hyn y creu sawl mantais, sef cynhyrchu canlyniadau gwell; natur o gyd-weithio a fydd yn golygu y bydd gwell cyd-weithio ar reoli’r amgylchedd; gwerth am arian, oherwydd, drwy ddefnyddio adnoddau’n well, mae’n bosibl cynyddu effeithlonrwydd; a datganoli, gan gymryd penderfyniadau yng Nghymru.

Having completed the business case, the team’s recommendation was to create a single body. I agree with the decision, and realise that this creates a number of advantages, namely the production of better outcomes; collaboration of a kind that will mean that there will be better collaboration on managing the environment; value for money, because, through better use of resources, efficiency can be increased; and devolution, by taking decisions in Wales.

Weinidog, fel y gwyddoch, yr wyf yn croesawu corff amgylcheddol sengl ac yn barod i’w gefnogi. Fodd bynnag, fel cynrychiolydd Llanelli, mae pryder lleol gennyf. Fel y gwyddoch drwy gwestiynau blaenorol yn y Siambr, mae labordy Llanelli yn un o bedwar labordy Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yng Nghymru a Lloegr. Mae’n cyflogi 35 person, ac felly’n chwarae rôl bwysig yn yr economi leol, yn ogystal â’i bwysigrwydd ym meysydd gwaith amgylcheddol. Y pwynt hoffwn sôn amdano heddiw yw’r sefyllfa newydd ar ôl y cyhoeddiad ar sefydlu corff sengl. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol y bydd ymgynghoriad ar y trefniadau i ddod, sef ymgynghoriad ar swyddogaethau, pwerau a dyletswyddau’r corff newydd. Bydd yr ymgynghoriad hwn yn cael ei lansio yn gynnar yn 2012, fel yr ydych wedi ei ddweud, ac yr wyf yn siŵr bydd dadl yn y Siambr rhywbryd yn ddiweddarach yn y flwyddyn. Wedi sefydlu’r corff newydd, Weinidog, a ydych yn cytuno y dylai’r labordy yn Llanelli fod yn atebol iddo a bod cyllid yn cael ei drosglwyddo o Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd i’r corff newydd i redeg y labordy?

Minister, as you know, I welcome a single environment body and am ready to support it. However, as the representative for Llanelli, I have a local concern. As you know from previous questions in the Chamber, the laboratory in Llanelli is one of four Environment Agency laboratories in England and Wales. It employs 35 people, and therefore plays an important role in the local economy, in addition to its importance in terms of environmental work. The point that I would like to mention today is the new situation following the announcement on establishing a single body. I know that there will be a consultation on the future arrangements, that is, a consultation on the functions, powers and duties of the new body. This consultation will be launched early in 2012, as you have said, and I am sure that there will be a debate in the Chamber sometime later in the year. Following the establishment of the new body, Minister, do you agree that the laboratory in Llanelli should be accountable to it and that funding should be transferred from the Environment Agency to the new body to run the laboratory?

4.00 p.m.

The Minister for Environment and Sustainable Development (John Griffiths): I would like to welcome the contribution of three of the parties that are in the Chamber today in recognising the considerable advantages of moving to a single environment body. In responding to the debate, I will address the issues raised by the Conservatives and the concerns that they have. I will focus on the reasons for my decision, the preparation and scrutiny of the business case, the concerns raised and the next stages.

Gweinidog yr Amgylchedd a Datblygu Cynaliadwy (John Griffiths): Hoffwn groesawu cyfraniad tair o’r pleidiau sydd yn y Siambr heddiw wrth gydnabod y manteision sylweddol o symud i un corff amgylcheddol. Wrth ymateb i'r ddadl, byddaf yn mynd i'r afael â'r materion a godwyd gan y Ceidwadwyr a'r pryderon sydd ganddynt. Byddaf yn canolbwyntio ar y rhesymau dros fy mhenderfyniad, y paratoi a’r gwaith craffu ar yr achos busnes, y pryderon a godwyd a'r camau nesaf.

Contrary to what some Conservative Members have said, my decision was not taken quickly or lightly. Other Members have talked about the history to this process and the ultimate decision that I took. That decision was based on the business case. It provides a compelling case for change, based on three elements: more effective delivery, more devolution benefits and greater value for money.

Yn groes i'r hyn a ddywedwyd gan rai Aelodau Ceidwadol, ni wnes fy mhenderfyniad yn gyflym nac yn ddiofal. Mae Aelodau eraill wedi sôn am yr hanes tu ôl i’r broses hon a’r penderfyniad a gymerais yn y pen draw. Roedd y penderfyniad hwnnw’n seiliedig ar yr achos busnes. Mae'n rhoi achos cryf o blaid newid, yn seiliedig ar dair elfen: cyflawni mwy effeithiol, mwy o fanteision datganoli a mwy o werth am arian. 

The business case, which was described as ‘weak’ by some Conservative Members, and the process itself, which was criticised, were robust and do not support those criticisms at all. It has been scrutinised throughout its development. The benefits, costs and risks were developed by practitioners, from all three bodies, working with my officials as a programme team.  Work stream reports were written based on knowledge and advice from IT consultants, Government actuaries, the Cabinet Office, the Treasury, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the Government Actuary’s Department. A lot of work took place and it was robust.

Roedd yr achos busnes, a ddisgrifiwyd fel 'gwan' gan rai Aelodau Ceidwadol, a'r broses ei hun, a feirniadwyd, yn gadarn ac nid yw’n ategu’r beirniadaethau hynny o gwbl. Mae wedi cael ei archwilio drwy gydol ei ddatblygiad. Cafodd y buddion, y costau a'r risgiau eu datblygu gan ymarferwyr, o’r tri chorff, gan weithio gyda fy swyddogion fel tîm y rhaglen. Ysgrifennwyd adroddiadau llif gwaith yn seiliedig ar wybodaeth a chyngor gan ymgynghorwyr TG, actiwarïaid Llywodraeth, Swyddfa'r Cabinet, y Trysorlys, Cyllid a Thollau Ei Mawrhydi ac Adran Actiwari'r Llywodraeth. Gwnaed llawer o waith ac roedd yn waith cadarn.

The reports were agreed by the programme team and the programme board, which included the Wales directors of the three organisations. All of that underpins the business case, which was subject to Welsh Government cross-departmental scrutiny. There was a steering group, made up of non-executive board members from the three bodies, and a reference group consisting of stakeholders from a wide range of interests. Representatives of the trade union side of all three bodies saw the reports and the business case. I do not think that all of that adds up to ‘weakness’, as alleged by some of the Conservative Members here today. It was also subject to a thorough external review. The review concluded that the business case was thorough, robust and fit for purpose.

Cytunwyd ar yr adroddiadau gan dîm y rhaglen a bwrdd y rhaglen, a oedd yn cynnwys cyfarwyddwyr Cymru y tri sefydliad. Mae hynny i gyd yn sail i'r achos busnes, a oedd yn destun gwaith craffu trawsadrannol gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Roedd grŵp llywio, yn cynnwys aelodau anweithredol o fyrddau'r tri chorff, a grŵp cyfeirio yn cynnwys rhanddeiliaid o ystod eang o ddiddordebau. Gwelodd cynrychiolwyr o ochr yr undebau llafur o’r tri chorff yr adroddiadau a'r achos busnes. Nid yw hynny oll yn dangos 'gwendid', fel yr honnir gan rai Aelodau Ceidwadol yma heddiw. Roedd hefyd yn destun adolygiad allanol trylwyr. Daeth yr adolygiad i'r casgliad bod yr achos busnes yn drwyadl, yn gadarn ac yn addas i'r diben.

I welcome the amendment and what Dafydd Elis-Thomas said about further scrutiny and the role of the Assembly committee. I look forward to that exercise also. When it comes to the benefits of the new single body, I very much believe that the greater integration that the body will deliver will result in better outcomes for the environment, people, and economy of Wales. A single organisation will operate to a common agenda, with one set of plans and objectives. It will also provide a single point of contact to the public and businesses. I think that that will very much be welcomed by many organisations and people in Wales.

Croesawaf y gwelliant a'r hyn a ddywedodd Dafydd Elis-Thomas am graffu pellach a rôl pwyllgor y Cynulliad. Edrychaf ymlaen at yr ymarfer hwnnw hefyd. O ran manteision yr un corff newydd, credaf yn gryf y bydd yr integreiddio pellach y bydd y corff yn ei gyflwyno yn arwain at ganlyniadau gwell ar gyfer  amgylchedd, pobl ac economi Cymru. Bydd un sefydliad yn gweithredu yn ôl agenda cyffredin, gydag un set o gynlluniau ac amcanion. Bydd hefyd yn darparu un pwynt cyswllt i'r cyhoedd a busnesau. Credaf y bydd hynny'n cael ei groesawu’n fawr iawn gan lawer o sefydliadau a phobl yng Nghymru.

As far as the criticism of putting the cart before the horse is concerned, this change to a single environment body was taken forward with work on the natural environment framework, looking at a more integrated approach. Of course, we have sustainable development already as our central organising principle and it is in place through our sustainable development scheme. The first Bill from the Environment and Sustainable Development Department will be the sustainable development Bill and I think that is the right order of events, as far as legislation is concerned. 

O ran y feirniadaeth o roi'r cart o flaen y ceffyl, cyflwynwyd y newid hwn i un corff amgylcheddol gyda gwaith ar y fframwaith amgylchedd naturiol, gan edrych ar ddull mwy integredig. Wrth gwrs, mae datblygu cynaliadwy eisoes yn un o’n prif egwyddorion trefniadol ac y mae yn ei le drwy ein cynllun datblygu cynaliadwy. Bil cyntaf yr Adran Amgylchedd a Datblygu Cynaliadwy fydd y Bil datblygu cynaliadwy a chredaf mai dyna’r drefn gywir o ran deddfwriaeth.

We know that the single environment body will have to deliver on existing commitments. It is about European directives, UK Government legislation, Welsh Government legislation and policy. All of that, contrary to what some Conservative Members have said, is clear. In terms of devolution, we are talking about key decisions being made in Wales, which is very much in line with our direction of travel on devolution.

Gwyddom y bydd yn rhaid i'r un corff amgylcheddol gyflawni ar ymrwymiadau presennol. Mae'n ymwneud â chyfarwyddebau Ewropeaidd, deddfwriaeth Llywodraeth y DU, deddfwriaeth Llywodraeth Cymru a pholisi. Mae hynny i gyd yn glir, yn groes i'r hyn a ddywedodd rhai Aelodau Ceidwadol. O ran datganoli, yr ydym yn sôn am benderfyniadau allweddol yn cael eu gwneud yng Nghymru, sy’n gyson iawn â chyfeiriad ein taith o ran datganoli.

Members have mentioned cross-border services. As far as the Environment Agency and the Forestry Commission are concerned, we will continue to buy in cross-border services. Ken Skates made an important point regarding forestry research. We have been in discussion with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and we will seek a transfer of functions or a maintaining of the current service provision. I am happy to give Ken Skates that assurance.

Mae Aelodau wedi crybwyll gwasanaethau trawsffiniol. O ran  Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd a'r Comisiwn Coedwigaeth, byddwn yn parhau i brynu gwasanaethau trawsffiniol. Gwnaeth Ken Skates bwynt pwysig ynghylch ymchwil coedwigaeth. Yr ydym wedi bod yn trafod gydag Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig a byddwn yn ceisio trosglwyddo swyddogaethau neu gynnal y ddarpariaeth gwasanaeth presennol. Yr wyf yn hapus i roi'r sicrwydd hwnnw i Ken Skates.

The question of conflict of interest was raised by a number of Members. It is perfectly possible to deal with those issues within the three current bodies, as they are dealt with currently. I very much expect the new body to put Chinese walls in place, and I will be very keen to ensure that there is a transparent audit trail for regulatory decisions. I recognise what Members have said in terms of the importance of transparency and accountability. All of those issues will be fully aired in our consultation document, to be published early in 2012. As Keith Davies mentioned, there will be an opportunity then to make necessary points, including points about the laboratory in Llanelli.

Soniodd sawl Aelod am y gwrthdaro buddiannau. Mae'n gwbl bosibl delio â'r materion hynny o fewn y tri chorff presennol, fel yr ymdrinnir â hwy ar hyn o bryd. Yr wyf yn disgwyl yn fawr iawn i'r corff newydd roi muriau diadlam yn eu lle, a byddaf yn awyddus iawn i sicrhau bod trywydd archwilio tryloyw ar gyfer penderfyniadau rheoleiddio. Yr wyf yn cydnabod yr hyn y mae Aelodau wedi'i ddweud o ran pwysigrwydd tryloywder ac atebolrwydd. Bydd yr holl faterion hynny yn cael eu trafod yn llawn yn ein dogfen ymgynghori, i'w chyhoeddi yn gynnar yn 2012. Fel y soniodd Keith Davies, fe fydd yna gyfle i godi pwyntiau angenrheidiol, gan gynnwys pwyntiau am y labordy yn Llanelli.

The Public Bodies Bill is expected to receive Royal Assent shortly. It is the enabling legislation for this change, providing powers for Welsh Ministers to transfer functions from the existing bodies to a new body, and to set up that new body. Following the consultation, we will begin to develop Orders to enable the new body to function. I expect the new body will come into being on 1 April 2013.

Disgwylir i'r Bil Cyrff Cyhoeddus gael Cydsyniad Brenhinol cyn bo hir. Deddfwriaeth galluogi ydyw ar gyfer y newid hwn, gan ddarparu pwerau i Weinidogion Cymru i drosglwyddo swyddogaethau oddi wrth y cyrff presennol i gorff newydd, ac i sefydlu’r corff newydd hwnnw. Yn dilyn yr ymgynghoriad, byddwn yn dechrau datblygu Gorchmynion i alluogi'r corff newydd i weithredu. Rwy'n disgwyl y bydd y corff newydd yn dod i fodolaeth ar 1 Ebrill 2013.

Many Members have mentioned the Forestry Commission and forestry interests. Since being an Assembly Member, I have been impressed by the work of the Forestry Commission in terms of the private sector, economic development, recreation, community development, health and education. We want to build on those real advantages and achievements of the Forestry Commission. I expect the new body to continue to manage the forest as the Forestry Commission currently does, and to build on that progress. That is what the single environment body will seek to do, namely to build on those real achievements to date.

Mae llawer o Aelodau wedi sôn am y Comisiwn Coedwigaeth a buddiannau coedwigaeth. Ers bod yn Aelod Cynulliad, mae gwaith y Comisiwn Coedwigaeth wedi  creu argraff arnaf o ran y sector preifat, datblygu economaidd, hamdden, datblygu cymunedol, iechyd ac addysg. Rydym am adeiladu ar y manteision gwirioneddol a chyflawniadau’r Comisiwn Coedwigaeth. Yr wyf yn disgwyl i'r corff newydd barhau i reoli'r goedwig fel y gwna’r Comisiwn Coedwigaeth ar hyn o bryd, ac i adeiladu ar y cynnydd hwnnw. Dyna'r hyn y bydd yr un corff amgylcheddol yn ceisio ei wneud, sef adeiladu ar y llwyddiannau gwirioneddol hynny hyd yma.

In conclusion, it is ironic to hear the Conservatives highlighting forestry interests when you consider that their colleagues in England were intent on selling off the forestry estate. That is not a good way of protecting forestry interests.

I gloi, mae'n eironig clywed y Ceidwadwyr yn tynnu sylw at fuddiannau coedwigaeth pan fyddwch yn ystyried bod eu cydweithwyr yn Lloegr yn benderfynol o werthu’r ystâd goedwigaeth. Nid yw hynny'n ffordd dda o ddiogelu buddiannau coedwigaeth.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Will you conclude now, please?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. A wnewch chi orffen nawr, os gwelwch yn dda?

John Griffiths: We are intent on safeguarding forestry interests and I will ensure that that happens.

John Griffiths: Yr ydym yn benderfynol o ddiogelu buddiannau coedwigaeth a byddaf yn sicrhau bod hynny'n digwydd.

Nick Ramsay: I very much hope that the forest will be protected, but, sadly, the evidence that we have just heard from the Minister in no way indicates that it will be. On the point that you have the power to merge, just because you have the power to do something does not necessarily mean that you have to do it. However, if you decide that it is in the interest of people and the forest to do that, and that argument may well be made by many Members, then that has to be fully justified by a proper business case.

Nick Ramsay: Mawr obeithiaf y bydd y goedwig yn cael ei diogelu, ond, yn anffodus, nid yw’r dystiolaeth yr ydym newydd ei chlywed gan y Gweinidog yn awgrymu hynny mewn unrhyw ffordd. O ran eich pwynt bod gennych y pŵer i uno, nid yw’r ffaith fod gennych y pŵer i wneud rhywbeth o reidrwydd yn golygu bod yn rhaid i chi wneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, os byddwch yn penderfynu ei fod er budd y bobl a'r goedwig i wneud hynny, ac efallai y bydd y ddadl honno’n cael ei wneud gan nifer o Aelodau, yna mae'n rhaid ei gyfiawnhau'n llawn gan achos busnes priodol.

I heard the attacks by the Minister and some other Members on the Welsh Conservatives as if we were the only people in the world making these criticisms. However, as Antoinette and a number of other Members said earlier—I also have e-mails in front of me from trade unions involved in forestry—it is clear that these concerns range far more widely than these benches, which is why we have brought this debate before the Assembly. 

Clywais yr ymosodiadau gan y Gweinidog a rhai Aelodau eraill ar y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig fel pe nad oedd unrhyw un arall yn y byd yn gwneud y beirniadaethau hyn. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedodd Antoinette a nifer o Aelodau eraill yn gynharach-mae hefyd gennyf negeseuon e-bost o fy mlaen gan undebau llafur sy'n ymwneud â choedwigaeth-mae'n amlwg bod y pryderon hyn yn amrywio yn llawer ehangach na’r meinciau hyn, a dyna pam yr ydym wedi dod â’r ddadl hon gerbron y Cynulliad.

In his opening remarks, Russell George made the most important comment of all in the debate, when he asked what we are seeking to achieve. What is the Government seeking to achieve? Where is the vision? To Dafydd Elis-Thomas’s credit, he talked about vision. However, having listened to his comments about the vision, I still could not quite see where the vision was, but, to be honest, it is not his role to put forward that vision—it is for the Minister to do that in the process of underwriting the business case.

Yn ei sylwadau agoriadol, gwnaeth Russell George y sylw pwysicaf yn y ddadl pan ofynnodd beth yr ydym yn ceisio ei gyflawni. Beth y mae'r Llywodraeth yn ceisio ei gyflawni? Ble mae'r weledigaeth? I roi clod i Dafydd Elis-Thomas, soniodd am weledigaeth. Fodd bynnag, ar ôl gwrando ar ei sylwadau am y weledigaeth, roeddwn dal methu â gweld ble oedd y weledigaeth, ond, i fod yn onest, nid ei rôl ef yw cyflwyno’r weledigaeth honno—rôl y Gweinidog ydyw  yn y broses o lunio’r achos busnes.

Russell George also spoke about the need for sustainable development to be at the heart of this. How do we improve sustainability? What is the reason behind this proposed merger? The Liberal Democrats, in their contributions, were unwilling to support our motion, even though our motion is only saying that if this goes ahead—and we have regrets about it going ahead without a proper business case—then the evidence has to be presented up front. Ultimately, this is not only going to land you guys in it, or us in it, it will land all of us in it. Once the horse has bolted, it is too late to deal with the situation afterwards, or at least it is without facing extreme costs. Let us be clear about what our motion is saying.

Siaradodd Russell George hefyd am yr angen i ddatblygu cynaliadwy fod wrth wraidd hyn. Sut ydym yn gwella cynaliadwyedd? Beth yw'r rheswm tu ôl i’r uno arfaethedig hwn? Mae'r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, yn eu cyfraniadau, yn amharod i gefnogi ein cynnig, er bod ein cynnig ond yn dweud, os yw hyn yn mynd yn ei flaen-ac rydym yn gresynu ei fod yn mynd yn ei flaen heb achos busnes priodol-bod yn rhaid i’r dystiolaeth gael ei chyflwyno ymlaen llaw. Yn y pen draw, nid yw hyn yn mynd i achosi trafferth i chi, na thrafferth i ni, bydd yn achosi trafferth i bawb. Ar ôl yr uno, bydd yn rhy hwyr i ddelio â'r sefyllfa. Neu, bydd yn rhy hwyr i ddelio â’r sefyllfa heb wynebu costau eithafol. Gadewch inni fod yn glir ynghylch yr hyn y mae ein cynnig yn ei ddweud.

Good old Ken Skates and his contributions: he always makes thoughtful contributions that are worth listening to. For a moment, I thought that he was the only person on the Labour backbenches who was at all interested in forestry because he spoke well ahead of his colleagues, although Julie James and Keith did speak afterwards. It is always the same when you listen closely to Ken Skates’s contributions: on the face of it, he appears supportive of the Government, but, if you scratch away at the surface, there is a journalistic cynicism and a concern that a bad story might erupt in the future that he probably does not want to be closely associated with.

Chwarae teg i’r hen Ken Skates a’i gyfraniadau: mae o hyd yn gwneud cyfraniadau ystyriol sy'n werth gwrando arnynt. Am eiliad, tybiais mai ef oedd yr unig berson ar feinciau cefn Llafur a oedd â diddordeb mewn coedwigaeth oherwydd siaradodd ymhell o flaen ei gydweithwyr, er bod Julie James a Keith wedi siarad wedyn. Mae bob amser yr un fath pan fyddwch yn gwrando'n astud ar gyfraniadau Ken Skates: ar yr olwg gyntaf, mae'n ymddangos yn gefnogol i'r Llywodraeth, ond, os crafwch yr wyneb, mae sinigiaeth newyddiadurol a phryder y gallai stori ddrwg ffrwydro yn y dyfodol; nad yw, mwy na thebyg, am fod yn gysylltiedig ag ef.

David Rees: Can you expand on that? Several Members of the Labour Party, if not all of us who are involved with forestry, are concerned about it.  My own constituency has one of the largest forestry areas in Wales, and it is being decimated by disease. We all have a very keen interest in forestry.

David Rees: A allwch chi ymhelaethu ar hynny? Mae nifer o Aelodau'r Blaid Lafur, os nad pob un ohonom sy'n ymwneud â choedwigaeth, yn pryderu yn ei gylch. Mae gan fy etholaeth i un o'r ardaloedd coedwigaeth fwyaf yng Nghymru, ac mae'n cael ei ddinistrio gan glefyd. Mae gennym oll ddiddordeb brwd iawn mewn coedwigaeth.

Nick Ramsay: I know that you have a keen interest in forestry, maybe my comments were a little too far ranging. I was just making a comment that, at the start of this debate, many more Members from Plaid Cymru, the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives spoke than other Members, but we all make choices with regard to which debates we contribute to.

Nick Ramsay: Gwn fod gennych chi ddiddordeb brwd mewn coedwigaeth, efallai yr oedd fy sylwadau ychydig yn rhy eang. Roeddwn yn gwneud y sylw bod llawer mwy o Aelodau o Blaid Cymru, y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a'r Ceidwadwyr wedi siarad ar ddechrau’r ddadl hon nag Aelodau eraill, ond rydym i gyd yn gwneud dewisiadau o ran pa ddadleuon yr ydym yn cyfrannu atynt.

Antoinette Sandbach, in her comments, mentioned Jon Owen Jones, who has asked why the Forestry Commission is being included in this. It has been said that changes may damage future investment in Wales, and all because of a weak business case. Again and again, we come back to people out there who have very real concerns. I can see the Minister looking quizzically, but maybe he should try to engage with those people. I hope that he will do so in the consultation that he has promised, to see why they are concerned.

Soniodd Antoinette Sandbach, yn ei sylwadau, am Jon Owen Jones, sydd wedi gofyn pam fod y Comisiwn Coedwigaeth yn cael ei gynnwys yn hyn. Dywedwyd y gall newidiadau niweidio buddsoddi yn y dyfodol yng Nghymru, a hyn i gyd oherwydd achos busnes gwan. Dro ar ôl tro, rydym yn dod yn ôl at bobl sydd â phryderon go iawn. Gallaf weld y Gweinidog yn edrych yn ddryslyd, ond efallai y dylai geisio ymgysylltu â'r bobl hynny. Gobeithio y bydd yn gwneud hynny yn yr ymgynghoriad y mae wedi ei addo, i weld pam y maent yn bryderus.

If the Welsh Government is intent on pursuing this—it appears to be pursuing it blindly at the moment, regardless of the cases for and against—it will be in its long-term interest to ensure that it is certain that the body will deliver the sorts of benefits that a single environment body could deliver. For now, however, we are not convinced that it will deliver those benefits. It has been a good and timely debate today, and many Members have made important contributions. We all want to move forward and ensure that forestry is protected in Wales. I urge Members to vote for our motion to ensure that we all put the interests of forestry first, not those of vested political interests.

Os yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn benderfynol o fynd ar drywydd hyn—mae'n ymddangos ei bod yn mynd ar drywydd hyn yn ddall ar hyn o bryd, beth bynnag yw’r dadleuon o blaid ac yn erbyn—bydd ar ei ennill yn y tymor hir i sicrhau ei bod yn sicr y bydd y corff yn cyflwyno'r mathau o fuddion y gallai un corff amgylcheddol eu cyflawni. Am y tro, fodd bynnag, nid ydym yn argyhoeddedig y bydd yn sicrhau’r buddion hynny. Bu’n ddadl dda ac amserol heddiw, ac mae llawer o Aelodau wedi gwneud cyfraniadau pwysig. Yr ydym oll am symud ymlaen a sicrhau bod coedwigaeth yn cael ei ddiogelu yng Nghymru. Anogaf yr Aelodau i bleidleisio o blaid ein cynnig er mwyn sicrhau bod pob un ohonom yn rhoi buddiannau coedwigaeth yn gyntaf, yn hytrach na buddiannau gwleidyddol breiniedig.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is that the motion be agreed without amendment. Are there any objections? I see that there are. Therefore, voting on this item will be deferred until voting time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cwestiwn yw a ddylid derbyn y cynnig heb unrhyw welliannau. A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiadau? Gwelaf fod yna. Felly, gohiriaf bleidleisio ar yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendments 1 and 2 in the name of William Graham and amendment 3 and 4 in the name of Peter Black.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Rwyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1 a 2 yn enw William Graham a gwelliannau 3 a 4 yn enw Peter Black.

Cynnig NDM4874 Jocelyn Davies

Motion NDM4874 Jocelyn Davies

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i:

1. Calls on the Welsh Government to:

a) cyflwyno sylwadau brys i Lywodraeth y DU, yn dilyn cyhoeddi Datganiad yr Hydref, ynglŷn â’i methiant i ddarparu ysgogiad economaidd digonol i Gymru wrth ymateb i’r sefyllfa economaidd bresennol, ac ynglŷn â’i chynigion i gyflwyno tâl sector cyhoeddus rhanbarthol; a

a) make urgent representations to the UK Government, following the publication of the Autumn Statement, as to its failure to provide sufficient economic stimulus for Wales in response to the current economic situation and on its proposals to introduce regional public sector pay; and

b) mynd ati ar frys i osod ei chynlluniau ei hun ar gyfer ysgogiad economaidd, a ddylai gynnwys prosiectau seilwaith, cymorth i fusnesau a chymorth i bobl ifanc sy’n ddi-waith.

b) urgently set out its own plans for an economic stimulus which should include infrastructure projects, assistance to businesses and help for the young unemployed.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: Cynigiaf y cynnig.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: I move the motion.

Mae’n amserol iawn ein bod yn cael y drafodaeth hon heddiw. Gofynnaf i’r Cynulliad wrthod gwelliannau 1 a 2. Byddwn yn ymatal ar welliant 3, am resymau a ddaw’n glir yn y man, a byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant 4.

It is very timely that we should be having this debate today. I ask the Assembly to reject amendments 1 and 2. We will abstain on amendment 3, for reasons that will become clear in due course, and we will support amendment 4.

Dywedodd rhywun rywdro bod angen bod yn ofalus wrth ddadansoddi datganiad gan unrhyw Ganghellor y Trysorlys. Nid penawdau’r diwrnod, na phenawdau’r diwrnod nesaf sydd yn bwysig, ond ystyried beth mae’r glo mân yn ei ddweud. Ni ddaw hynny’n glir tan yn ddiweddarach. Yng Nghymru, yr oedd y penawdau ar y diwrnod yr wythnos ddiwethaf yn ymwneud â’r symiau canlyniadol neu’r consequentials, a beth ddylid ei wneud gyda’r £216 miliwn o arian cyfalaf dros dair blynedd a’r arian ar gyfer ardrethi busnes byddai Cymru yn ei dderbyn. Wrth gwrs mae hynny’n cuddio’r gostyngiad o £618 miliwn yn rhaglen gyfalaf y Llywodraeth dros gyfnod yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant. Felly, yr ydych yn cymharu’r £216 miliwn gyda thoriad o £618 miliwn.

Someone once said that you need to be careful when analysing a statement by any Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is not the headlines on the day or the next day that are important, but consideration of what the actual detail involves. That does not become clear until later. In Wales, the headlines last week, on the day, related to the consequentials and what should be done with the £216 million of capital funding over three year, and the money for business rates that Wales would receive. Of course, that hides the reduction of £618 million in the Government’s capital programme over the period of the comprehensive spending review. Therefore, you are comparing £216 million with a cut of £618 million.

4.15 p.m.

Cyfraniad bach, felly, yw anrheg Nadolig George Osborne, wedi ei osod yn erbyn y toriad enfawr yn rhaglen gyfalaf Llywodraeth Cymru. Yr hyn yr wyf yn ceisio ei gyflwyno yw hyn: os nad oedd y gwelliannau £1 biliwn i’r M4 yn fforddiadwy cyn y dirwasgiad, pa fodd y mae cyfraniad mor bitw yn eu gwneud yn fforddiadwy yn awr?

George Osborne’s Christmas present is therefore a small contribution when set against the huge cut to the Welsh Government’s capital programme. What I am trying to introduce is this: if the £1 billion improvements to the M4 were not affordable before the recession, how can such a tiny contribution make them affordable now?

Mae mwy o newyddion gwael yng nglo mân datganiad George Osborne. Mae wedi cyhoeddi y bydd toriadau o £800 miliwn yn arian Cymru yn y ddwy flynedd sy’n dilyn yr adolygiad, sef 2016 a 2017. Hynny yw, rhwng 2010 a 2017, bydd bloc Cymru yn colli £2.7 biliwn mewn termau real. Yr hyn a oedd yn fy synnu ddoe pan oeddwn yn eich holi, Brif Weinidog, oedd ei fod fel pe na baech yn gwybod hynny. Pam nad oedd Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gwneud asesiad manwl o effaith datganiad George Osborne ar Gymru? Pam nad oeddech yn gwybod bod y toriadau pellach hyn yr ydym yn eu hwynebu yn golygu mwy o doriadau i wasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru ac i’r economi? Er enghraifft, yr ydym yn gwybod y bydd y toriad presennol yn golygu y gwelwn 21,000 o swyddi yn cael eu colli yn y sector cyhoeddus. Bydd 10,000 arall yn sgîl y toriadau pellach.

There is more bad news in the small print of George Osborne’s statement. He has announced that there will be cuts of £800 million in Wales’s funding in the two years following the review, namely 2016 and 2017. That is to say, between 2010 and 2017, the Welsh block will lose £2.7 billion in real terms. What shocked me yesterday when I was questioning you, First Minister, was that you did not seem to realise that. Why did the Welsh Government not carry out a detailed assessment of the impact of George Osborne’s statement on Wales? Why were you not aware that the further cuts that we are facing will mean greater cuts to public services in Wales and to the economy? For example, we know that the current cut will mean that we will see 21,000 jobs lost in the public sector. Another 10,000 will be lost as a result of the further cuts.

Yr ydym yn gweld y ddêl a wnaethoch gyda’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol mewn golau llawer gwaeth yn awr. Yr ydych wedi rhoi £20 miliwn i’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, ond maent hwy wedi torri eich cyllideb o £800 miliwn yn 2015-16. Yn fy marn i, mae hynny’n fargen eithaf gwael.

We see the deal that you cut with the Liberal Democrats in a far worse light now. You have given the Liberal Democrats £20 million, but they have cut your budget by £800 million in 2015-16. In my opinion, that is a poor bargain.

There is always a danger when one looks at the headlines of the autumn statement; it is only when the small print is examined that the true impact is really understood. The only direct sum, and I think that the First Minister confirmed that yesterday, that we have been able to identify as coming to Wales is the capital allocation of £216 million over three years. That is hardly an economic stimulus. The kind of stimulus that George Osborne was talking about in a UK context is £30 billion. Wales’s share of that should be around £1.5 billion. That means that £1.2 billion should come from somewhere else. From where? It seems to me, from looking at the autumn statement, that the only place that it can come from is the private sector and from pension funds. However, no answer was given by the Chancellor about how Wales could benefit from that.

Mae wastad perygl pan fyddwch yn edrych ar benawdau datganiad yr hydref; dim ond pan edrychwch ar y print mân y gallwch chi ddeall y gwir effaith yn iawn. Yr unig swm uniongyrchol, a chredaf y cadarnhaodd y Prif Weinidog hwn ddoe, yr ydym yn gallu’i weld yn dod i Gymru yw’r dyraniad cyfalaf o £216 miliwn dros dair blynedd. Prin fod hynny’n ysgogiad economaidd. Y math o ysgogiad yr oedd George Osborne yn sôn amdano yng nghyd-destun y DU yw £30 biliwn. Dylai tua £1.5 biliwn o hynny fod yn gyfran Cymru. Mae hynny’n golygu y dylai £1.2 biliwn ddod o rywle arall. O ble? Mae’n ymddangos i mi, o edrych ar ddatganiad yr hydref, mai’r unig le y gallai ddod ohono yw’r sector preifat ac o gronfeydd pensiwn. Fodd bynnag, ni roddwyd unrhyw ateb gan y Canghellor am sut y gallai Cymru elwa o hynny.

We were also told that there is to be a national loan guarantee scheme, worth £20 billion, to help banks lend to businesses. I must say to the Assembly that when the previous scheme, which was the enterprise finance guarantee scheme, was set up by the previous Government in Whitehall and subsequently adopted by the present Government, many banks were reluctant to use it. Many businesses in Wales did not qualify and that was because of red tape and the onerous conditions. Frankly, that was something of a damp squib. There is also to be a £1 billion business finance partnership to invest in small and medium-sized enterprises. We have yet to see the detail, but I doubt if it will help many businesses in Wales.

Dywedwyd wrthym hefyd y bydd cynllun gwarantu benthyciadau cenedlaethol, gwerth £20 biliwn, i helpu banciau i fenthyca i fusnesau. Rhaid imi ddweud wrth y Cynulliad, pan sefydlwyd y cynllun blaenorol, sef y cynllun gwarantu cyllid menter, a sefydlwyd gan y Llywodraeth flaenorol yn Whitehall ac a fabwysiadwyd ar ôl hynny gan y Llywodraeth bresennol, roedd nifer o fanciau’n amharod i’w ddefnyddio. Nid oedd nifer o fusnesau yng Nghymru’n gymwys ac yr oedd hynny oherwydd biwrocratiaeth a’r amodau beichus. A dweud y gwir, yr oedd hynny’n rhywbeth o fatsien wleb. Bydd hefyd bartneriaeth cyllid busnes £1 biliwn i fuddsoddi mewn mentrau bach a chanolig eu maint. Rydym eto i weld y manylion, ond yr wyf yn amau y bydd yn helpu nifer o fusnesau yng Nghymru.

However, I welcome the youth contract plan. That might give employers the incentive to employ a young person for his or her first job, and it is to be a wage incentive of £2,275. That sounds very much like ProAct to me, which I suggested that the First Minister should reintroduce but that he rejected outright. The youth contract plan should help around 8,000 young people in Wales, but, as Dafydd Elis-Thomas made clear in his speech yesterday, it must be a way of securing sustainable jobs.

Fodd bynnag, croesawaf gynllun y contract ieuenctid. Fe allai hynny roi cymhelliant i gyflogwyr i gyflogi person ifanc am ei swydd gyntaf, ac fe fydd yn gymhelliad cyflog o £2,275. Mae hynny’n swnio’n debyg iawn i ProAct i mi, yr awgrymais y dylai’r Prif Weinidog ei ailgyflwyno, ond gwrthododd yn llwyr. Dylai’r cynllun contract ieuenctid helpu tua 8,000 o bobl ifanc yng Nghymru, ond, fel y gwnaeth Dafydd Elis-Thomas yn glir yn ei araith ddoe, rhaid iddo fod yn ffordd o sicrhau swyddi cynaliadwy.

To sum up, when the autumn statement was announced, there was a lot about the spin, but the substance is much less palatable. The kind of economic stimulus that Wales gets amounts to no more than a row of beans. I urge the First Minister and the Minister for Finance to push harder for a massive capital injection. They should think, as Gerry Holtham has suggested, in terms of billions rather than millions, secure agreement on a build-for-Wales concept and get on with shovel-ready schemes to get the people of Wales working.

I grynhoi, pan gyhoeddwyd datganiad yr hydref, roedd llawer am y sbin, ond mae’r sylwedd yn llawer llai dymunol. Nid yw’r math o ysgogiad economaidd y mae Cymru’n ei gael yn gwneud mwy na rhes o ffa. Anogaf y Prif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog Cyllid i wthio’n anoddach am chwistrelliad enfawr o gyfalaf. Dylent feddwl, fel yr awgrymodd Gerry Holtham, yng nghyd-destun biliynau yn hytrach na miliynau, sicrhau cytundeb ar gysyniad adeiladu ar gyfer Cymru, a bwrw ymlaen â chynlluniau sy’n barod i’w gweithredu er mwyn cael pobl Cymru’n gweithio.

What in addition should the Welsh Government do? Let me give a few practical suggestions. It should be far more ambitious in its dealings with the Treasury. It should secure a capital project worth £2.6 billion over the lifetime of the Assembly—that is not my idea, but Gerry Holtham’s. It could be done by pushing for more Treasury cash and securing agreement on a build-for-Wales-type scheme. The plan should include schools, hospitals, transport and housing projects. Government should also rethink its plans on the business rate relief scheme. A small business bonus scheme, as we have called for, would give 80 per cent of Welsh businesses an immediate cash injection and protect thousands of jobs. The Treasury scheme is much smaller, and does not have the real impact that the enhanced scheme would have. The Government has costed that at £45 million. Every small business in Wales would get help, as would most of our medium-sized businesses. We should also make clear that the budget for business, enterprise, technology and science should be enhanced to get the enterprise zones up and running, with support for manufacturing in the key growth sectors. The Government keeps saying that £55 million has been announced by the Minister, and that is welcome. However, it is not new money—it is recycled from within the existing budget, and most of it will come from underspends.

Beth yn ogystal ddylai Llywodraeth Cymru ei wneud? Gadewch imi roi ychydig o awgrymiadau ymarferol. Dylai fod yn llawer mwy uchelgeisiol yn ei hymwneud gyda’r Trysorlys. Dylid sicrhau prosiect cyfalaf gwerth £2.6 biliwn yn ystod oes y Cynulliad—nid fy syniad i yw hynny, ond syniad Gerry Holtham. Gellid ei wneud drwy wthio am fwy o arian Trysorlys a sicrhau cytundeb ar gynllun tebyg i adeiladu ar gyfer Cymru. Dylai’r cynllun gynnwys ysgolion, ysbytai, trafnidiaeth a phrosiectau tai. Hefyd, dylai’r Llywodraeth ailystyried ei chynlluniau ar y cynllun rhyddhad ardrethi busnes. Byddai cynllun bonws i fusnesau bach, fel yr ydym wedi galw amdano, yn rhoi chwistrelliad o arian parod ar unwaith i 80 y cant o fusnesau Cymru ac yn diogelu miloedd o swyddi. Mae cynllun y Trysorlys yn llai o lawer, ac nid oes ganddo’r gwir effaith y byddai gan gynllun gwell. Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi pennu taw £45 miliwn fyddai cost hynny. Byddai pob busnes bach yng Nghymru yn cael help, fel y byddai’r rhan fwyaf o’n busnesau o faint canolig. Dylem hefyd ei gwneud yn glir y dylid gwella’r gyllideb busnes, menter, technoleg a gwyddoniaeth i sefydlu parthau menter, gyda chymorth ar gyfer gweithgynhyrchu yn y sectorau twf allweddol. Mae’r Llywodraeth yn cadw dweud bod £55 miliwn wedi ei gyhoeddi gan y Gweinidog, ac mae hynny i’w groesawu. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n arian newydd—y mae wedi cael ei ailgylchu o fewn y gyllideb bresennol, a bydd y rhan fwyaf ohono’n dod o danwariant.

The Government should also substantially increase the young recruits programme. I agree with what the Government is seeking to address here, but we need to look at the scale of the problem. Fifty thousand young people are now without a job. Not all the money for this scheme needs to come from the departmental expenditure line—a big share can come from European Union funds—and a scheme of at least £10 million is needed to make a real impact. No-one can say that we in Plaid Cymru are sitting on our hands and blaming the UK Government for everything. Yes, we agree that the austerity measures involve cutting too fast, and too soon, but there are things that the Welsh Government can do, as we have demonstrated, to ameliorate the impact of the economic crisis on the people of Wales. The only thing that we must now do is persuade this Welsh Government to implement them, to be bold and ambitious and innovative in the interests of the people of Wales.

Dylai’r Llywodraeth hefyd gynyddu’n sylweddol raglen y recriwtiaid ifanc. Cytunaf gyda’r hyn y mae’r Llywodraeth yn ceisio ymdrin ag ef yma, ond mae angen inni edrych ar faint y broblem. Mae 50,000 o bobl ifanc yn awr heb swydd. Nid oes angen i’r holl arian ar gyfer y cynllun hwn ddod o’r llinell gwariant adrannol—gall cyfran fawr ddod o gronfeydd yr Undeb Ewropeaidd—ac mae angen cynllun £10 miliwn o leiaf i gael effaith go iawn. Ni all neb ddweud ein bod ni ym Mhlaid Cymru yn llaesu dwylo ac yn beio Llywodraeth y DU am bopeth. Ie, rydym yn cytuno bod y cyni cyllidol yn golygu gwneud toriadau’n rhy gyflym, ac yn rhy fuan, ond mae pethau y gall Llywodraeth Cymru eu gwneud, fel yr ydym wedi dangos, i liniaru effaith yr argyfwng economaidd ar bobl Cymru. Yr unig beth y mae’n rhaid inni ei wneud yn awr yw perswadio Llywodraeth Cymru i’w gweithredu, i fod yn fentrus ac yn uchelgeisiol ac yn arloesol er budd pobl Cymru.

Gwelliant 1 William Graham

Amendment 1 William Graham

Dileu is-bwynt 1a) a rhoi yn ei le:

Delete sub point 1a) and replace with:

Parhau i weithio gyda Lywodraeth y DU, ar ôl cyhoeddi Datganiad yr Hydref sy’n cynnwys mesurau ar gyfer ysgogiad economaidd, ar ei chynigion i ystyried tâl sector cyhoeddus rhanbarthol.

Make urgent representations to the UK Government, following the publication of the Autumn Statement which includes measures for economic stimulus, on its proposals to consider regional public sector pay.

Gwelliant 2 William Graham

Amendment 2 William Graham

Cynnwys is-bwynt b) newydd ac ail-rifo’r pwyntiau sy’n dilyn:

Insert as new sub point b) and renumber accordingly:

Cynnwys goblygiadau cymharol tâl datganoledig mewn unrhyw sylwadau i Lywodraeth y DU ynghylch tâl sector cyhoeddus rhanbarthol.

Incorporate in any representations to the UK Government over regional public sector pay, the relative implications of devolved pay.

Janet Finch-Saunders: I move amendments 1 and 2 in the name of William Graham.

Janet Finch-Saunders: Cynigiaf welliannau 1 a 2 yn enw William Graham.

I am pleased to be speaking in this debate. The Welsh Conservatives will be supporting amendments 3 and 4 in the name of Peter Black, which address the issue of economic stimulus in the motion. We cannot support the motion in its current form, as the Chancellor’s autumn statement indicated that there would be an independent review of making public sector pay more responsive to local labour markets. He did not propose to introduce a regional pay system. Therefore, given the circumstances, it would be prudent to await the outcomes of the review before jumping to any conclusions.

Yr wyf yn falch o gael siarad yn y ddadl hon. Bydd y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn cefnogi gwelliannau 3 a 4 yn enw Peter Black, sy’n ymdrin â’r mater o ysgogiad economaidd yn y cynnig. Ni allwn gefnogi’r cynnig yn ei ffurf bresennol, gan y nododd datganiad hydref y Canghellor y byddai adolygiad annibynnol o wneud cyflogau’r sector cyhoeddus yn fwy ymatebol i farchnadoedd llafur lleol yn cael ei gynnal. Ni chynigiodd y dylid cyflwyno system tâl ranbarthol. Felly, o ystyried yr amgylchiadau, byddai’n ddoeth disgwyl am ganlyniadau’r adolygiad cyn neidio i unrhyw gasgliadau.

Mick Antoniw rose—

Mick Antoniw a gododd—

Janet Finch-Saunders: I will take your intervention in a minute. This is not a new development; it has been discussed and looked at by previous UK Governments before the autumn statement was made. Speaking in the House of Commons on Tuesday, the Chancellor said that the Government has instructed independent pay review bodies to look into how public sector pay can be more responsive to local labour markets. The aim of this review is to take a significant step towards creating a more balanced economy in the regions of our country that does not squeeze out the private sector. We know that, while private sector pay is set in accordance with local labour markets, public sector pay is usually set on a national basis. As a result, in many areas, public sector pay does not reflect local labour market conditions. For example, the Institute for Fiscal Studies has found that public sector workers are paid similar wages to private sector workers in some parts of the country but over 10 per cent more in other locations. Some public sector organisations, such as Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service, have already successfully taken action to ensure that pay is in line with other local labour markets, but there is the potential for others to take a similar approach.

Janet Finch-Saunders: Cymeraf eich ymyriad mewn munud. Nid yw hwn yn ddatblygiad newydd; cafodd ei drafod a’i ystyried gan Lywodraethau blaenorol y DU cyn y gwnaed datganiad yr hydref. Wrth siarad yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin ddydd Mawrth, dywedodd y Canghellor fod y Llywodraeth wedi cyfarwyddo cyrff adolygu cyflogau annibynnol i edrych ar sut y gall cyflogau’r sector cyhoeddus fod yn fwy ymatebol i farchnadoedd llafur lleol. Nod yr adolygiad hwn yw cymryd cam mawr tuag at greu economi mwy cytbwys yn rhanbarthau ein gwlad sydd ddim yn gwasgu’r sector preifat. Gwyddom, tra pennir cyflogau yn y sector preifat yn unol â marchnadoedd llafur lleol, gosodir cyflog y sector cyhoeddus fel arfer ar sail genedlaethol. O ganlyniad, mewn nifer o ardaloedd, nid yw cyflogau’r sector cyhoeddus yn adlewyrchu amodau’r farchnad lafur lleol. Er enghraifft, mae’r Sefydliad Astudiaethau Cyllid wedi canfod bod gweithwyr yn y sector cyhoeddus mewn rhai rhannau o’r wlad yn cael eu talu’n debyg i weithwyr yn y sector preifat, ond bod hyn dros 10 y cant yn fwy mewn lleoliadau eraill. Mae rhai sefydliadau sector cyhoeddus, megis Gwasanaeth Llysoedd a Thribiwnlysoedd Ei Mawrhydi, eisoes wedi cymryd camau llwyddiannus i sicrhau bod cyflog yn unol â marchnadoedd llafur lleol eraill, ond mae potensial i eraill ddefnyddio dull tebyg.

Mick Antoniw: When you said that regional pay could be made more responsive, what did you mean? What is the difference between the two?

Mick Antoniw: Pan ddywedasoch y gellid gwneud cyflog rhanbarthol yn fwy ymatebol, beth oeddech chi’n ei olygu? Beth yw’r gwahaniaeth rhwng y ddau?

Janet Finch-Saunders: I have some notes here. It is just as I said. At the end of the day, as I have just read out in my statement, it would be prudent to await the review. The Chancellor did not review, in the autumn statement, regional pay.

Janet Finch-Saunders: Mae gennyf rai nodiadau yma. Mae’n union fel y dywedais. Ar ddiwedd y dydd, fel yr wyf newydd ddarllen yn fy natganiad, byddai’n ddoeth disgwyl am yr adolygiad. Ni wnaeth y Canghellor adolygu cyflog rhanbarthol yn natganiad yr hydref.

Current pay differences between state and private sector workers doing similar jobs can adversely affect businesses and lead to variations in the quality of public services from one area to another. These pay differences do nothing to incentivise people to work in the private sector. However, it is understood that some public sector workers will not be part of the review into regional public sector pay—including members of the armed forces, dentists, doctors and the judiciary—contrary to what the First Minister has been saying in the press.

Gall gwahaniaethau cyflog presennol rhwng gweithwyr y wladwriaeth a gweithwyr yn y sector preifat sy’n gwneud swyddi tebyg gael effaith andwyol ar fusnesau ac arwain at amrywiadau yn ansawdd y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus o’r naill ardal i’r llall. Nid yw’r gwahaniaethau cyflog hyn yn gwneud dim i gymell pobl i weithio yn y sector preifat. Fodd bynnag, deellir na fydd rhai gweithwyr sector cyhoeddus yn rhan o’r adolygiad o gyflogau’r sector cyhoeddus rhanbarthol—gan gynnwys aelodau o’r lluoedd arfog, deintyddion, meddygon a’r farnwriaeth—sy’n groes i’r hyn y mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi’i ddweud yn y wasg.

I understand that the consultation for this review will report back to the Chancellor by July 2012.

Deallaf y bydd yr ymgynghoriad ar gyfer yr adolygiad hwn yn adrodd yn ôl i’r Canghellor erbyn mis Gorffennaf 2012.

David Rees: You mentioned doctors, the armed forces and so on, but you did not mention nurses. Therefore, in your view, are nurses not worthy of equal pay across the country?

David Rees: Soniasoch am feddygon, y lluoedd arfog ac ati, ond ni soniasoch am nyrsys. Felly, yn eich barn chi, onid yw nyrsys yn deilwng o gyflog cyfartal ar draws y wlad?

Janet Finch-Saunders: I did not say that, and by no means do I believe that. That is why we would have ring-fenced the budget for health.

Janet Finch-Saunders: Ni ddywedais hynny, ac nid wyf yn credu hynny o gwbl. Dyna pam y buasem ni wedi neilltuo’r gyllideb ar gyfer iechyd.

The Welsh Government has already made comments to the press regarding this review and has suggested devolving powers for public sector pay and conditions to Wales. If the Welsh Government is serious about devolving this issue, a full comprehensive statement needs to be made on the floor of this Assembly to discuss the practicalities and the implications. In the interim, the Welsh Government should be engaging with the UK Government and submitting its position to the Secretary of State and to the Chancellor, so that its views are taken into account during this process.

Mae Llywodraeth Cymru eisoes wedi gwneud sylwadau i’r wasg ynghylch yr adolygiad hwn ac wedi awgrymu datganoli pwerau dros gyflog ac amodau’r sector cyhoeddus i Gymru. Os yw Llywodraeth Cymru o ddifrif ynghylch datganoli’r mater hwn, mae angen datganiad llawn a chynhwysfawr ar lawr y Cynulliad hwn i drafod yr ymarferoldeb a’r goblygiadau. Yn y cyfamser, dylai Llywodraeth Cymru ymgysylltu â Llywodraeth y DU a chyflwyno ei safbwynt i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol ac i’r Canghellor, fel bod ei barn yn cael ei hystyried yn ystod y broses.

I will move on to amendment 3 on capital spending consequentials, which we will be supporting. I am pleased that the Welsh Government has welcomed an additional £216 million to spend over the next three years on large capital projects. I hope that all parties in the Chamber will welcome this funding. Let me remind Members that Wales will benefit from the decision to defer the 3p per litre fuel duty increase, an increase in the basic state pension for 600,000 older people and the cancellation of the inflation increase that was planned for August 2012. In addition, I understand that a further announcement will be made shortly on Barnett consequentials, once departmental spends have been confirmed for the period of 2015. I hope that the Welsh Government will actively engage with the UK Government on these issues and I look forward to hearing more about them, as and when developments occur. I hope that Members will support our amendments this afternoon.

Trof at welliant 3 ar symiau canlyniadol o wariant cyfalaf, y byddwn yn eu cefnogi. Yr wyf yn falch bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi croesawu’r £216 miliwn yn ychwanegol i’w wario dros y tair blynedd nesaf ar brosiectau cyfalaf mawr. Gobeithiaf y bydd pob plaid yn y Siambr yn croesawu’r cyllid hwn. Gadewch imi atgoffa’r Aelodau y bydd Cymru yn elwa ar y penderfyniad i ohirio’r cynnydd o 3c y litr yn nhreth tanwydd, cynnydd yn y pensiwn gwladol sylfaenol i fwy na 600,000 o bobl hŷn a diddymu’r cynnydd mewn chwyddiant a fwriadwyd ar gyfer mis Awst 2012. Yn ogystal, deallaf y bydd cyhoeddiad pellach cyn bo hir ar symiau canlyniadol Barnett, unwaith y bydd gwariant adrannol wedi’i gadarnhau ar gyfer 2015. Gobeithiaf y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn ymgysylltu â Llywodraeth y DU ar y materion hyn ac edrychaf ymlaen at glywed mwy amdanynt, pan fydd datblygiadau’n digwydd. Gobeithiaf y bydd Aelodau’n cefnogi ein gwelliannau y prynhawn yma.

Gwelliant 3 Peter Black

Amendment 3 Peter Black

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Add as new point at end of motion:

Yn croesawu’r ysgogiad economaidd a fydd yn deillio o’r £216 miliwn o gyllid cyfalaf ychwanegol ar gyfer Cymru a gyhoeddwyd fel rhan o Ddatganiad Hydref Llywodraeth y DU.

Welcomes the economic stimulus which will result from the £216 million of additional capital funding for Wales announced as part of the UK Government’s Autumn Statement.

Gwelliant 4 Peter Black

Amendment 4 Peter Black

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Add as new point at end of motion:

Yn croesawu cyhoeddi’r Contract Ieuenctid a fydd yn darparu help i bobl ifanc ddi-waith.

Welcomes the announcement of the Youth Contract which will provide help for young unemployed people.

Eluned Parrott: I move amendments 3 and 4 in the name of Peter Black.

Eluned Parrott: Cynigiaf welliannau 3 a 4 yn enw Peter Black.

I thank Plaid Cymru for bringing this debate before us today. The economy is our biggest challenge and it is right that we recognise the urgency of the situation and call on the Welsh Government to work effectively with the Government in Westminster over issues that are of joint concern. However, I believe that the Welsh Liberal Democrats have secured a great deal for Wales here in Cardiff, through our negotiations with the Welsh Government, and also in Westminster.

Diolchaf i Blaid Cymru am gyflwyno’r ddadl hon ger ein bron heddiw. Ein her fwyaf yw’r economi ac mae’n iawn ein bod yn cydnabod brys y sefyllfa ac yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i weithio’n effeithiol gyda Llywodraeth San Steffan ar y materion sydd o ddiddordeb cyffredin. Fodd bynnag, credaf fod y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi sicrhau llawer iawn i Gymru yma yng Nghaerdydd, drwy ein trafodaethau gyda Llywodraeth Cymru, a hefyd yn San Steffan.

In amendment 3, we seek to recognise the benefits that the autumn statement will bring to Wales. Not only will it bring that significant Barnett consequential to us, but the investment package will bring measures that will help to get Wales’s economy moving. There is the decision, for example, to defer the 3p per litre fuel duty increase that was due to take effect in January, which will obviously help rural communities and businesses. Wales will also benefit from ongoing networking investments in telecoms, energy programmes and particularly in electricity and gas transmission investments.

Yng ngwelliant 3, rydym yn ceisio cydnabod y manteision y bydd datganiad yr hydref yn eu cynnig i Gymru. Nid yn unig y bydd yn dwyn y swm canlyniadol Barnett sylweddol i ni, ond bydd y pecyn buddsoddiad yn dod â mesurau a fydd yn helpu i ysgogi economi Cymru. Er enghraifft, gwelwn y penderfyniad i ohirio’r cynnydd o 3c y litr yn y dreth ar danwydd a oedd i ddod i rym ym mis Ionawr, a fydd yn amlwg yn helpu cymunedau a busnesau gwledig. Bydd Cymru hefyd yn elwa o’r buddsoddiadau rhwydweithio parhaus mewn telathrebu, rhaglenni ynni, ac yn enwedig buddsoddiadau mewn trosglwyddiadau trydan a nwy.

The autumn statement also announced an urban broadband fund to create 10 super-connected cities, including Cardiff. That is on top of the money that has already been given to us to achieve the roll-out of superfast broadband across Wales. I welcome the UK Government’s intention to engage proactively with the Welsh Government on the subject of the Severn bridge tolls and on improvements to the M4 in south-east Wales. I give my commitment to do what I can to lobby my colleagues in Westminster on this issue.

Cyhoeddodd datganiad yr hydref hefyd gronfa band eang trefol er mwyn creu 10 o ddinasoedd uwch-gysylltiedig, gan gynnwys Caerdydd. Mae hynny ar ben yr arian sydd eisoes wedi’i roi i ni i gyflawni’r gwaith o gyflwyno band eang cyflym iawn ledled Cymru. Rwy’n croesawu bwriad Llywodraeth y DU i ymgysylltu’n rhagweithiol â Llywodraeth Cymru ar bwnc tollau Pont Hafren ac ar welliannau i’r M4 yn ne-ddwyrain Cymru. Rhoddaf fy ymrwymiad i wneud popeth posibl i lobïo fy nghyd-aelodau yn San Steffan ar y mater hwn.

In amendment 4, we welcome the £1 billion investment in a youth contract for 18 to 24-year-olds, which will be available to young people in Wales. I am glad to see that Plaid Cymru recognises the value of this plan. Starting next April, the youth contract will provide at least 410,000 new work places over the next three years. That is open to 7,000 young people in my region of South Wales Central. These opportunities are in addition to the Jobs Growth Wales programme, supported by the Welsh Government.

Yng ngwelliant 4, yr ydym yn croesawu’r buddsoddiad o £1 biliwn mewn contract ieuenctid ar gyfer pobl 18 i 24 mlwydd oed, a fydd ar gael i bobl ifanc yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn falch o weld bod Plaid Cymru yn cydnabod gwerth y cynllun hwn. Gan ddechrau fis Ebrill nesaf, bydd y contract ieuenctid yn darparu o leiaf 410,000 o leoedd gwaith newydd dros y tair blynedd nesaf. Mae hynny’n agored i 7,000 o bobl ifanc yn fy rhanbarth i yng Nghanol De Cymru. Mae’r cyfleoedd hyn yn ychwanegol at raglen Twf Swyddi Cymru, sy’n cael ei chefnogi gan Lywodraeth Cymru.

4.30 p.m.

Turing to decisions made here in Cardiff, I would like to correct what I believe was an error of fact in Ieuan Wyn Jones’s opening statement. The Welsh Government did not give the Welsh Liberal Democrats £20 million; it gave that money to Wales’s most deprived children, to give them hope and to build their skills for the future. Frankly, I would be ashamed to criticise that.

I droi at benderfyniadau a wneir yma yng Nghaerdydd, hoffwn gywiro’r hyn a dybiaf oedd yn wall ffeithiol yn natganiad agoriadol Ieuan Wyn Jones. Ni wnaeth Llywodraeth Cymru roi £20 miliwn i Ddemocratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru; rhoddodd yr arian hwnnw i blant mwyaf difreintiedig Cymru, i roi gobaith iddynt ac i ddatblygu eu sgiliau ar gyfer y dyfodol. I fod yn onest, byddai’n gywilydd gen i feirniadu hynny.

As part of the agreement to support the Welsh Government’s budget, the Welsh Liberal Democrats have been really pleased to agree an economic stimulus package of £38.9 million to be spent on a range of measures. That money will fund infrastructure projects. It will provide assistance to businesses, and it will help the young unemployed. I very much agree with many of the statements that Plaid Cymru has made in the Chamber on the need to take positive action to create jobs. In the current financial maelstrom, we must invest in projects that help to give that initial boost to the economy. The plans that we have supported will fund the capital investment in schools programme, a scheme to deliver an additional 130 affordable homes and road enhancements, and all of these will act to protect and create jobs in the suffering construction sector in Wales.

Fel rhan o’r cytundeb i gefnogi cyllideb Llywodraeth Cymru, bu Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn falch iawn o gytuno ar becyn ysgogi economaidd gwerth £38.9 miliwn i’w wario ar ystod o fesurau. Bydd yr arian hwnnw yn ariannu prosiectau seilwaith. Bydd yn cynorthwyo busnesau, a bydd yn helpu pobl ifanc di-waith. Cytunaf yn llwyr â nifer o ddatganiadau Plaid Cymru yn y Siambr bod angen gweithredu’n bositif er mwyn creu swyddi. Yn y ddrycin ariannol bresennol, mae’n rhaid inni fuddsoddi mewn prosiectau sy’n help i roi’r hwb cychwynnol hwnnw i’r economi. Bydd y cynlluniau y gwnaethom eu cefnogi yn ariannu’r rhaglen buddsoddiad cyfalaf mewn ysgolion, cynllun i ddarparu 130 o dai fforddiadwy ychwanegol a gwelliannau i ffyrdd, a bydd y rhain i gyd yn fodd o ddiogelu a chreu swyddi yn y sector adeiladu yng Nghymru, sydd wedi bod yn dioddef.

The young recruits programme will also deliver an additional 1,800 apprenticeships over the coming months. Youth unemployment is unacceptably high in Wales and we must focus on it. I agree that we must give hope and real opportunities to our young people. Discussions that we have had in the Chamber can only be good if they serve to feed new ideas into policy development for Wales. For that reason, I thank you for the contributions that you have made. We do not have borrowing powers, however. The pot of money is finite. We must balance the desire to be ambitious with the realities of the situation that we are in. We must live in the real world.

Bydd y rhaglen recriwtiaid newydd hefyd yn darparu 1,800 o brentisiaethau ychwanegol yn y misoedd i ddod. Mae diweithdra ymysg pobl ifanc yn annerbyniol o uchel yng Nghymru ac mae’n rhaid inni ganolbwyntio arno. Cytunaf bod yn rhaid inni roi gobaith a chyfleoedd go iawn i’n pobl ifanc. Mae’r trafodaethau a gawsom yn y Siambr yn beth da os ydynt yn bwydo syniadau newydd i mewn i ddatblygu polisi ar gyfer Cymru. Nid oes gennym bwerau benthyca, fodd bynnag. Nid yw’r grochan o arian yn ddiddiwedd. Mae’n rhaid inni gydbwyso’r dymuniad i fod yn uchelgeisiol gyda realiti’r sefyllfa yr ydym ynddi. Mae’n rhaid inni fyw yn y byd go iawn.

I thank Plaid Cymru for bringing forward this debate. Although I am not involved in my party’s negotiations over the Barnett consequential, I am confident that boosting the economy will be central to those discussions. I look forward to seeing the proposals for that money in due course and seeing the potential that those proposals will bring for the people of Wales.

Diolch i Blaid Cymru am gyflwyno’r ddadl hon. Er nad wyf yn rhan o drafodaethau fy mhlaid ar swm canlyniadol Barnett, hyderaf y bydd ysgogi’r economi yn ganolog i’r trafodaethau hynny. Edrychaf ymlaen at weld y cynigion ar gyfer yr arian hwnnw maes o law ac i weld y potensial y bydd y cynigion hynny yn ddod i Gymru. 

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Yr argyfwng economaidd yw’r her fwyaf sy’n wynebu Cymru heddiw, ac mae’n siŵr dros y blynyddoedd nesaf. Nid oes wythnos yn mynd heibio heb i set newydd o ystadegau gael ei chyhoeddi sy’n tanlinellu difrifoldeb y sefyllfa. Mae twf ymhell o dan y rhagolygon gwreiddiol, a bydd y rhagolygon yn siŵr o gael eu lleihau eto dros y cyfnod nesaf. Mae diweithdra yng Nghymru ar lefel gwbl annerbyniol. Mae tua’r un lefel ag a welwyd yn ystod y dirwasgiad economaidd diwethaf a hynny, fel yr ydym wedi clywed, yn cynnwys bron i chwarter o bobl ifanc Cymru sy’n ddi-waith.

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: The economic crisis is the greatest challenge facing Wales today and is likely to be the case for the next few years. Not a week that goes by without a new set of statistics being published that underline the seriousness of the situation. Growth is a lot lower than had been expected, and the forecasts are likely to be downgraded again in the next period. Unemployment in Wales stands at an unacceptably high level. It is at around the same level as during the last economic recession and that, as we have heard, includes almost a quarter of the young people of Wales who are unemployed.

Mae sefyllfa swyddi’r sector cyhoeddus, fel y clywsom yr wythnos diwethaf, yn waeth na’r disgwyl. Mae’r Swyddfa Cyfrifoldeb Cyllidebol bellach yn cyfaddef y bydd colledion swyddi sylweddol uwch, sef rhyw 710,000 ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae hynny’n golygu y bydd y ffigur yng Nghymru, mewn gwirionedd, dros y blynyddoedd i ddod ymhell dros y 30,000 a ragwelwyd yn flaenorol.

The situation with public sector jobs, as we heard last week, is worse than expected. The Office for Budget Responsibility now admits that there will be a significantly higher number of job losses—some 710,000 across the UK. That will mean that the figure in Wales in the ensuing years, in reality, will be way over the 30,000 that had previously been predicted.

Mae’r Trysorlys yn San Steffan yn dadlau y bydd y swyddi a gollir yn y sector cyhoeddus yn cael eu hadennill drwy greu swyddi newydd yn y sector preifat. Ofnaf mai stori wahanol bydd hi yng nghyd-destun Cymru os yw profiadau’r gorffennol yn unrhyw ffon fesur inni.

The Treasury in Westminster argues that these jobs that are to be lost in the public sector will be regained as new jobs are created in the private sector. I am afraid that the story will be very different in the Welsh context if past experiences are anything to go by.

Mae gorddibyniaeth Cymru ar y sector cyhoeddus yn bwnc sydd wedi’i wyntyllu yn y Siambr yn gyson dros y misoedd diwethaf. Fel rhywun sy’n byw yn un o’r siroedd sy’n fwyaf dibynnol ar y sector hwnnw—mae dros 37 y cant o’r gweithlu yn y sector cyhoeddus yn sir Ddinbych—gwn fod angen bod yn glir bod colli swyddi yn y sector cyhoeddus yn cael effaith uniongyrchol ar y sector preifat. Nid dim ond cost i unigolion a theuluoedd sydd; ceir hefyd effaith sylweddol ac ymarferol ar fusnesau yn y gymuned honno. Byddai cyflwyno tâl rhanbarthol yn y sector cyhoeddus yn gwneud y sefyllfa honno’n waeth, gyda chyflogau is, llai o wario yn yr economi leol, llai o drosiant i fusnesau, llai o fusnesau a llai o swyddi.

Wales’s overdependence on the public sector is an issue that has been aired in this Chamber regularly over the past few months. As someone who lives in one of the counties that is most dependent on that sector—over 37 per cent of the workforce in Denbighshire is in the public sector—I know we need to be clear that job losses in the public sector have a direct impact on the private sector. There is not only a cost to individuals and families, but a significant and practical impact on businesses in that community. Introducing regional pay in the public sector would make that situation even worse, with lower wages, less expenditure in the local economy, less turnover for businesses, fewer businesses and fewer jobs.

Yn y dirwasgiad diwethaf, collodd y sector preifat yng Nghymru bron i 50,000 o swyddi. Os gollwn nifer tebyg o swyddi eto, ynghyd â’r rhagamcanion o golledion swyddi yn y sector cyhoeddus, gallem weld tua 90,000 mwy o bobl yn ddi-waith dros y blynyddoedd i ddod, a hynny, wrth gwrs, os nad yw unrhyw ddirwasgiad a allai fod o’n blaenau yn waeth na’r un blaenorol. Yng nghyd-destun ehangach, gyda thrafferthion Ewrop, pwy a ŵyr pa fath o heriau sydd o’n blaenau yn y misoedd a’r blynyddoedd i ddod?

In the last recession, the private sector in Wales lost almost 50,000 jobs. If we lose a similar number of jobs again, along with the predicted jobs losses in the public sector, we could see around 90,000 more people out of work in ensuing years, and that is, of course, if any recession that we may be facing is no worse than previous ones. In the wider context of broader European problems, who knows what sorts of challenges face us in the next few years?

Felly, nid yw’n bosibl osgoi ymateb i’r argyfwng economaidd yng Nghymru mewn modd sy’n gymesur â maint yr argyfwng sy’n ein hwynebu. Mae hynny’n golygu penderfyniadau anodd a blaenoriaethu meysydd gwariant, ond, yn bwysicach na dim, mae’n golygu creu pecyn achub economaidd sylweddol sydd yn cynnwys nifer o fesurau gyda’r nod o gynnal swyddi a busnesau yng Nghymru.

We cannot avoid therefore responding to the economic crisis in Wales in a way that is appropriate to the scale of the crisis facing us. That means difficult decisions and prioritising expenditure, but, above all, it means creating a substantial economic rescue package that includes a number of measures with the aim of maintaining jobs and businesses in Wales.

Fel yr ydym wedi clywed, byddai rhaglen buddsoddi cyfalaf yn ysgogiad economaidd pwysig i Gymru, a byddai rhaglen fel Adeiladu dros Gymru, fel y amlinellwyd cyn heddiw, yn gyfrwng i wneud hynny. Mae’r cynnig ger ein bron hefyd yn cyfeirio at gymorth penodol i bobl ifanc di-waith, a byddaf yn awyddus iawn i weld llawer mwy o bwyslais ar gryfhau sgiliau yn y cyd-destun hwnnw. Serch hynny, un o’r elfennau allweddol yn fy marn i yw’r angen i ddatblygu cynllun i ddiogelu swyddi ymhlith busnesau bach yng Nghymru. Mae Plaid Cymru wedi galw am efelychu cynllun bonws busnes Llywodraeth yr Alban, sydd yn fwy hael na lefel presennol Cymru o ryddhad ardrethi. Byddai hyn wedi gweld mwy o ryddhad graddoledig ardrethi i fusnesau Cymru gyda gwerth ardrethiannol o hyd at £18,000. Mae’r cynllun presennol, wrth gwrs, yn cynorthwyo busnesau gyda gwerth ardrethiannol hyd at £12,000. Byddai hynny yn ein galluogi i ddiogelu miloedd o swyddi a chynnal canol ein trefi a’n cyflogwyr lleol.

As we have heard, a capital investment programme would be an important economic stimulus for Wales, and a programme such as Build for Wales, as has been outlined before today, would be a means of doing that. The motion before us also refers to specific assistance for the young unemployed, and I would be very keen to see far greater emphasis on strengthening skills in that context. However, one of the key elements in my opinion is the need to develop a scheme to safeguard jobs among small businesses in Wales. Plaid Cymru has called for the Scottish Government’s business bonus scheme, which is more generous than the current level of rate relief in Wales, to be emulated. This would have seen graduated rate relief for Welsh business with a rateable value of up to £18,000. The current scheme, of course, assists businesses with a rateable value of up to £12,000. This would enable us to protect thousands of jobs and support our town centres and local employers.

Byddai mwy na 8,000 o gwmnïau yng Nghymru nad ydynt ar hyn o bryd yn cael unrhyw ryddhad ardrethi wedi eu cynnwys yn y pecyn newydd hwnnw. Mae’r ddwy gost fwyaf busnesau bach yw ardrethi busnes a chyflogau. Yr wyf yn byw mewn tref sydd wedi gweld cynnydd brawychus yn nifer yr unedau manwerthu gwag. Yr wyf yn siŵr gall bob un ohonom yn gallu uniaethu â’r realiti hwnnw. Mae’r cefnogi’r sector manwerthu’n enwedig yn ystyriaeth bwysig, gan mai dyna yw’r cyflogwr sector preifat mwyaf yng Nghymru, gyda dros 200,000 o swyddi. Fel y dywedais wrth agor, mae Cymru’n wynebu yn o’r heriau economaidd mwyaf sylweddol ers datganoli, ac mae angen pecyn economaidd creadigol, uchelgeisiol a’r un mor sylweddol i amddiffyn busnesau a swyddi yn eu hawr o angen.

More than 8,000 companies that currently do not get any rate relief would have been included in that new package. The two main costs for small businesses are business rates and wages. I live in a town that has seen a frightening increase in the number of vacant retail units. I am sure that each and every one of us can identify with that reality. Supporting the retail sector is a very important consideration, because it is the largest private sector employer, with more than 200,000 jobs. As I said in opening, Wales faces one of its most significant economic challenges since devolution, and we need a creative, ambitious and equally substantial economic package to protect businesses and jobs in their hour of need.

Mick Antoniw: This is an important debate, and I want to focus on the aspect of the motion that deals with the issue of regional pay. As a former student of dialectical materialism, I have to say in response to the Member for Aberconwy that I find it absolutely bizarre to distinguish between considering regional pay and considering making regional pay more responsive. However, I want to look at the history of regional pay and the background to the Government’s proposals. There was a very interesting paper in 2004 by the Bevan Foundation on precisely this issue. It is an interesting piece of research, because it analyses the 2003 White Paper, ‘Modernising Government’.

Mick Antoniw: Mae hon yn ddadl bwysig, ac yr wyf am ganolbwyntio ar elfen y cynnig sy’n delio â chyflog rhanbarthol. Fel cyn-fyfyriwr materoliaeth ddialectig, mae’n rhaid imi ddweud mewn ymateb i’r Aelod dros Aberconwy ei bod yn beth od iawn i wahaniaethu rhwng ystyried cyflog rhanbarthol a gwneud cyflog rhanbarthol yn fwy ymatebol. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf eisiau edrych ar hanes cyflog rhanbarthol a’r cefndir i gynigion y Llywodraeth. Yr oedd papur diddorol iawn yn 2004 gan Sefydliad Bevan ar yr union fater hwn. Mae’n ddarn diddorol o waith oherwydd mae’n dadansoddi’r Papur Gwyn a gyhoeddwyd yn 2003, ‘Moderneiddio Llywodraeth’.

It is fair to say that the issue of regional pay was looked at by the last Labour Government. However, the issue then was very different, given the economic circumstances that we are in now, because, at that time, the main concern was the recruitment and retention of staff at times of near full employment. It was a case of working out how to pay certain areas more rather than less. The situation that we are now in is that we have a Tory and Lib Dem Government in Westminster that is considering the issue of regional pay for very different reasons. Its intention is very clear: it is not about the recruitment and retention of workers, but about reducing the deficit by paying workers in Wales, particularly in north-east and north-west Wales, less for doing the same job as the equivalent workers in parts of England.

Mae’n deg dweud fod cyflog rhanbarthol wedi cael ei ystyried gan y Llywodraeth Lafur ddiwethaf. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd y broblem yn wahanol iawn adeg honno, o ystyried yr amgylchiadau economaidd yr ydym ynddynt bellach. Bryd hynny, y prif gonsyrn oedd recriwtio a chadw staff ar adeg o gyflogaeth bron yn llawn. Mater ydoedd o weithio allan sut i dalu mwy i ardaloedd penodol, yn hytrach na llai. Y sefyllfa yr ydym ynddi yn awr yw bod gennym Lywodraeth Dorïaidd a Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn San Steffan sy’n ystyried cyflog rhanbarthol am resymau gwahanol iawn. Mae ei bwriad yn glir iawn: nid yw’n ymwneud â recriwtio a chadw gweithwyr, ond yn hytrach lleihau’r diffyg drwy dalu gweithwyr yng Nghymru, yn enwedig yng ngogledd-dwyrain a gogledd-orllewin Cymru, yn llai am wneud yr un gwaith â gweithwyr cyfatebol mewn rhannau o Loegr.

We need to look at the impact of such a policy, because it is clear that it can only have a negative and adverse effect. It really frightens me as a policy. Although the Bevan Foundation research was carried out in 2004, the lessons from its analysis and the conclusions are very clear. Downward pressure on public sector jobs will create downward pressure on private sector pay. Another impact of this downward pressure will be to reduce the multiplier effect from public sector investment. It is generally agreed that, for every two public sector jobs, the impact of that financial spend is the creation of a private sector job. As the Bevan Foundation report states,

Mae angen inni edrych ar effaith polisi fel hyn, achos mae’n amlwg mai dim ond effaith negyddol ac andwyol a gaiff. Mae’n fy arswydo fel polisi. Er bod ymchwil Sefydliad Bevan wedi’i wneud yn 2004, mae’r gwersi o’i ddadansoddiad a’r casgliadau yn glir. Bydd pwysau ar swyddi sector cyhoeddus yn creu pwysau ar gyflog y sector preifat. Canlyniad arall o’r pwysau hwn fydd lleihau’r effaith amlhau o fuddsoddiad y sector cyhoeddus. Cytunir yn gyffredinol, am bob dwy swydd yn y sector cyhoeddus, mai canlyniad y gwariant ariannol hynny yw creu swydd yn y sector preifat. Fel y dywed adroddiad Sefydliad Bevan,

‘a reduction in pay and hence in spending power, would reduce the multiplier effect and hence would have knock on effects on other employment’.

byddai lleihad mewn cyflog ac felly mewn gallu i wario yn lleihau’r effaith amlhau ac felly byddai’n cael sgil-effaith ar gyflogaeth arall.

The impact of this downward pressure would clearly be greatest in our Valleys. The opposition so often goes on about the importance of rural areas, and this would also have a very significant impact on rural areas, where there is greater dependence on public sector jobs and where earnings are lowest. It was suggested by the Bevan Foundation that the implementation of regional pay at that time could result in the development of a difference of around £100 per week between UK and local average earnings. If we add this to the impact of other Government policies, such as the reduction in welfare and housing benefits, a public sector pay freeze that will result in a cut in real-terms earnings, a reduction in pension value, the use of the consumer price index for benefits and pensions as opposed to the higher retail price index, and the massively increasing cost of fuel, energy and transport, which, once again, those who represent certain rural constituencies often portray as being of importance to them, the future is bleak and the challenge to our Welsh Government in dealing with this is enormous. Therefore, I urge Members of the Welsh Tory and Lib Dem parties to use all of their influence to urge the UK Government to reject this shameful proposal. When attempts were made to introduce regional pay in the courts service in 2007, Tory and Lib Dem Members opposed it on principle, and you were right to do so. You must take a stand now and decide who you listen to: David Cameron or the Welsh people.

Yn amlwg, byddai effaith y pwysau hyn fwyaf yn ein Cymoedd. Mae’r wrthblaid yn sôn mor aml am bwysigrwydd ardaloedd gwledig, a byddai hyn hefyd yn cael effaith sylweddol iawn ar ardaloedd gwledig, lle mae mwy o ddibyniaeth ar swyddi yn y sector cyhoeddus a lle mae cyflogau ar eu hisaf. Awgrymodd Sefydliad Bevan y gallai cyflwyno cyflog rhanbarthol bryd hynny wedi arwain at ddatblygu gwahaniaeth o tua £100 yr wythnos rhwng cyflogau y DU a chyflogau cyfartalog lleol. Os ydym yn ychwanegu hyn at effaith polisïau eraill y Llywodraeth, megis y gostyngiad mewn budd-dal lles a thai, rhewi cyflogau sector cyhoeddus a fydd yn arwain at doriad mewn cyflogau termau real, lleihad mewn gwerth pensiwn, defnyddio’r mynegai prisiau defnyddwyr ar gyfer budd-daliadau a phensiynau yn hytrach na’r mynegai prisiau manwerthu, sy’n uwch, a chost aruthrol gynyddol tanwydd, ynni a thrafnidiaeth, sydd, unwaith eto, yn aml yn cael eu portreadu gan y rhai sy’n cynrychioli etholaethau gwledig penodol fel rhywbeth pwysig iddynt, yna tywyll yw’r rhagolygon ac mae’r her i’n Llywodraeth Cymru i ddelio â hyn yn enfawr. Felly, anogaf Aelodau pleidiau y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig a Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i wrthod y cynnig cywilyddus hwn. Pan wnaethpwyd ymdrechion i gyflwyno cyflog rhanbarthol yn y gwasanaeth llysoedd yn 2007, yr oedd Aelodau’r Ceidwadwyr a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn ei erbyn fel egwyddor, ac yr oeddech yn iawn i wneud hynny. Mae’n rhaid ichi ymwroli yn awr a phenderfynu ar bwy y gwnewch wrando: David Cameron neu bobl Cymru.

Regional pay is simple to understand. It is the institutionalisation of regional poverty. Aside from the consequences, it is wholly wrong to suggest that a teacher or a nurse in Wales should be paid any less than their counterparts in England for doing exactly the same job. Therefore, I ask each and every one of you to stand up and declare that you will oppose this policy, that you will defend the people of Wales and, in so doing, you will also give support to those public sector workers all over the UK who would be adversely affected by what is a ruinous proposal.

Mae cyflog rhanbarthol yn hawdd i’w ddeall. Mae’n gwneud tlodi rhanbarthol yn rhan o’r sefydliad. Heblaw am y canlyniadau, mae’n gwbl anghywir awgrymu y dylid talu athro neu nyrs yng Nghymru yn llai na’u cymheiriaid yn Lloegr am wneud union yr un gwaith. Felly, gofynnaf i bob un ohonoch i sefyll a datgan y byddwch yn gwrthwynebu’r polisi hwn, y byddwch yn amddiffyn pobl Cymru, ac wrth wneud hynny, hefyd yn cefnogi gweithwyr y sector cyhoeddus hynny ledled y DU a fyddai’n dioddef o ganlyniad i’r cynnig andwyol hwn.

Elin Jones: Mae nifer o siaradwyr eisoes wedi sôn y prynhawn yma am hyd a lled y drafferth economaidd sy’n wynebu ein gwlad ac economi’r gorllewin ar hyn o bryd. Mae Ieuan Wyn Jones wedi amlinellu’r math o raglen economaidd ddychmygus sydd angen arnom fel gwlad ar fyrder a’r arweiniad sydd angen inni ei weld wrth y Llywodraeth i roi hynny ar waith.

Elin Jones: Several speakers have already talked this afternoon about the extent of the economic difficulties facing our country and the western economy at the moment. Ieuan Wyn Jones has outlined the kind of imaginative economic programme that our country needs urgently and the leadership that we need to see from the Government in order to implement that.

Yn fy nghyfraniad byr y prynhawn yma, hoffwn ganolbwyntio ar ddau faes penodol iawn, sydd eto angen arweiniad wrth y Llywodraeth ar hyn o bryd er mwyn sicrhau budd i’r economi yn y tymor canol. Yr wyf yn eu codi’r prynhawn yma oherwydd bod angen symud ar y materion hyn yn awr, ac nid wyf yn hyderus bod y symud hynny yn digwydd o fewn y Llywodraeth. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn rhoi cyfle i’r Prif Weinidog fy nghywiro y prynhawn yma, os medr wneud hynny.

In my short contribution this afternoon, I would like to focus on two very specific areas, which again require guidance from the Government at present to ensure that the economy benefits in the medium term. I raise these points this afternoon because there is a need to move on these issues now, and I am not confident that that movement is happening within the Government. However, I give the First Minister the opportunity to correct me this afternoon, if he can do so.

Bydd y Prif Weinidog yn gwybod, wrth gwrs, y bydd cyfle dros y misoedd nesaf i gyflwyno cais rhyngwladol i gofrestru enw parth lefel uchel ar gyfer Cymru. Ar hyn o bryd, mae gan fusnesau a chyrff yng Nghymru’r gallu i ddefnyddio ‘.uk’ neu ryw enw parth amhenodol fel ‘.com’ neu ‘.org’. Mae gennym gyfle i sefydlu ‘.cymru’ a ‘.wales’ yn enwau parthau rhyngwladol a gobeithiaf y gall y Prif Weinidog gadarnhau’r prynhawn yma fod Llywodraeth Cymru eisiau sicrhau ‘.cymru’—neu ‘.cymru’ a ‘.wales’ yn ddwyieithog—a bod hwnnw yn flaenoriaeth i’r Llywodraeth dros yr wythnosau nesaf.

The First Minister knows, of course, that there will be an opportunity over the coming months to submit an international application to register a high-level domain name for Wales. At the moment, businesses and organisations in Wales can use ‘.uk’ or an indeterminate domain name such as ‘.com’ or ‘.org’. We have the opportunity to establish. ‘.cymru’ and ‘.wales’ as international domain names and I hope that the First Minister can confirm this afternoon that the Welsh Government wants to secure ‘.cymru’—or ‘.cymru’ and ‘.wales’ bilingually—and that that is a priority for the Government over the next few weeks.

Yr ydym yn gwybod y bydd cais yn cael ei gyflwyno ar gyfer ‘.scot’, ac mae’n bosibl hefyd y bydd cais ar ran ‘.london’. Bydd defnydd o’r enw parth lefel uchel hwn yn rhoi presenoldeb cenedlaethol a phresenoldeb rhyngwladol i Gymru ac i fusnesau Cymru. Bydd yn drychineb pe bai Cymru yn colli’r cyfle hwn. Mae’n flaenoriaeth, yn fy marn i, bod cais cryf, llwyddiannus yn deillio o Gymru ar gyfer y rownd hon o geisiadau. Mae’n gyfrifoldeb ar y Llywodraeth hon i roi arweiniad i’r gwaith hwn dros yr wythnosau nesaf, gan fod yr amserlen yn fyr.

We know that an application will be submitted for ‘.scot’, and it is also possible that an application will be made on behalf of ‘.london’. The use of this high-level domain name gives a national and international presence to Wales and Welsh businesses. It would be disastrous if Wales were to lose this opportunity. It is a priority, in my opinion, that a strong, successful application emanates from Wales for this round of applications. It is the responsibility of this Government to guide this work over the next few weeks, because the timetable is short.

Er mwyn hyrwyddo Cymru o ddifrif fel gwlad fodern, ddigidol, mae hefyd angen yr isadeiledd telegyfathrebu. Ym maniffesto Plaid Cymru eleni, yr oedd cynllun blaengar i Lywodraeth Cymru godi rhwydwaith o fastiau ffôn symudol mewn mannau lle nad oes gwasanaeth ffonau symudol digonol ar hyn o bryd. Unwaith y bydd Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol wedi gwerthu’r trwyddedau ar gyfer 4G, fel y mae wrthi yn ei wneud ar hyn o bryd, byddwn, fel gwlad, yn gweld rhywfaint o chwildro telegyfathrebu eto wrth i fand llydan fod fwyfwy ar gael drwy 4G.

To promote Wales seriously as a modern, digital country, we also need the telecommunications infrastructure. Plaid Cymru’s manifesto this year contained an innovative scheme that would see the Welsh Government raising a network of mobile phone masts in areas where mobile reception is inadequate at present. Once the United Kingdom Government has sold the 4G licences, as it is the process of doing at the moment, we, as a country, will see something of a telecommunications revolution once again as broadband becomes increasingly available through 4G.

4.45 p.m.

Heb rwydwaith digonol o fastiau ffôn symudol, gwelwn fod Cymru o dan anfantais sylweddol unwaith eto yn y byd digidol, ac yn cwympo yn ôl. Mae cyrhaeddiad ein mastiau ffôn, fel yr ydym i gyd yn gwybod, yn llai nag yn Lloegr. Yn fy marn i a Phlaid Cymru, mae angen ymyrraeth gan Lywodraeth Cymru i godi mastiau ffôn lle mae’r cwmnïau ffôn wedi methu â chyflenwi hynny.

Without an adequate network of mobile phone masts, we see that Wales is at a significant disadvantage yet again in the digital world, and is falling behind. The coverage of our phone masts, as we all know, is less than it is in England. In my and Plaid Cymru’s opinion, we need the Welsh Government to intervene to build phone masts where the phone companies have failed to do so.

Fel mae’n digwydd, ym mis Medi eleni, mabwysiadodd George Osborne—chwarae teg iddo—bolisi Plaid Cymru a chyhoeddi ei fod yn rhyddhau £150 miliwn i adeiladu mastiau ffôn newydd. O’r datganiad hwnnw, yr oedd hi’n glir fod yr arian ar gael i Gymru yn ogystal â gwledydd eraill Prydain. Fodd bynnag, nid ydym wedi clywed dim oddi wrth y Llywodraeth hon ynghylch sut bydd yr arian hwn yn cael ei wario yng Nghymru na phryd y byddwn yn gweld cyfres o fastiau ffôn newydd yn cael eu codi, fel bod ein pobl a’n busnesau yn barod i gymryd mantais lawn o’r cyfle a ddaw yn sgil 4G o fewn y ddwy flynedd nesaf.

As it happens, in September his year, George Osborne—fair play to him—adopted a Plaid Cymru policy by announcing that he was releasing £150 million to build new phone masts. It was clear from that announcement that that money was available to Wales as well as the other countries of the UK. However, we have heard nothing from this Government about how that money will be spent in Wales or when will we see a series of new phone masts being built, so that our people and businesses are well placed to take full advantage of the opportunity that will come in the wake of 4G in the next two years.

Yr wyf wedi canolbwyntio ar y ddau faes hyn yn unig yn fy nghyfraniad y prynhawn yma. Nid oes angen ymrwymiad ariannol sylweddol gan y Llywodraeth ar y ddau fater hyn. Yn wir, mae’r cyllid wedi’i gynnig gan y Trysorlys ar gyfer un ohonynt. Y cyfan sydd ei angen yw ewyllys ar ran y Llywodraeth a’r Prif Weinidog i weithredu. Caiff y Prif Weinidog geisio ein perswadio yn hwyrach y prynhawn yma a oes ganddo’r ewyllys i weithredu er lles economi Cymru.

I have focused on these two areas in my contribution this afternoon. Neither issue calls for a significant financial commitment by the Government. Indeed, the Treasury has offered funding for one of them. All we need is a will to act on the part of the Government and the First Minister. The First Minister can try to persuade us later this afternoon whether he has the will to act for the benefit of the Welsh economy.

Suzy Davies: The second part of this motion invites the Welsh Government to urgently set out its own plans for economic stimulus—a stimulus that was identified as missing by some contributors to yesterday’s budget debate. Even in this difficult financial environment, the Welsh Government has benefited from two capital sums that it might have hoped for, but could not have relied on receiving. It is, therefore, curious that so much of the £38 million consequential from the UK Government has been absorbed into programmes that had already been budgeted for this year. Either a council tax freeze or taking small businesses out of business rates altogether would have been something new on the menu of economic drivers.

Suzy Davies: Mae ail ran y cynnig hwn yn gwahodd Llywodraeth Cymru i amlinellu ar frys ei chynlluniau ei hun ar gyfer ysgogiad economaidd—ysgogiad a nododd rhai cyfranwyr at y ddadl ar y gyllideb ddoe oedd ar goll. Hyd yn oed yn yr amgylchedd ariannol anodd hwn, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi elwa o ddau swm cyfalaf y gallai fod wedi gobeithio amdanynt, ond ni allai fod wedi dibynnu ar eu derbyn. Y mae, felly, yn rhyfedd bod cymaint o’r swm canlyniadol o £38 miliwn gan Lywodraeth y DU wedi cael ei amsugno i mewn i raglenni a oedd eisoes wedi’u cyllidebu ar gyfer eleni. Byddai naill ai rhewi’r dreth gyngor neu gymryd busnesau bach allan o ardrethi busnes yn gyfan gwbl wedi bod yn rhywbeth newydd ar y ddewislen o yrwyr economaidd.

Today’s amendments identify that the Chancellor’s autumn statement does offer support to the Welsh economy and examples of that support have been given by both Janet Finch-Saunders and Eluned Parrot. However, I am sure that it is the £216 million capital package and additional revenue consequentials that should now interest the Welsh Government. While it is in order for it to be looking at the best new stimulus from this new money, such as changes to business rates, it must not overlook ideas that have already been identified as economic levers that may not have been budgeted for to the extent needed, where complacency may have set in, or that might even face cuts.

Noda welliannau heddiw fod datganiad yr hydref y Canghellor yn cynnig cefnogaeth i economi Cymru ac mae Janet Finch-Saunders ac Eluned Parrot ill dwy wedi rhoi enghreifftiau o’r gefnogaeth honno. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn siŵr mai’r pecyn cyfalaf £216 miliwn a symiau canlyniadol o refeniw ychwanegol a ddylai fod o ddiddordeb i Lywodraeth Cymru yn awr. Er ei bod yn iawn iddi ystyried yr ysgogiad newydd orau o’r arian newydd hwn, fel newidiadau i ardrethi busnes, ni ddylai anwybyddu syniadau sydd eisoes wedi’u nodi fel liferi economaidd nad ydynt efallai wedi cael eu cyllidebu ar eu cyfer i’r graddau sydd eu hangen, lle gall fod hunanfoddhad wedi ymwreiddio, neu a allai hyd yn oed fod yn wynebu toriadau.

The importance of the creative industries to the Welsh economy has been raised in this Chamber before. The United Nations has identified this sector as one that continues to demonstrate scope for growth, even in times of recession. This is one area of economic activity where the Welsh Government has responsibility that must be re-prioritised for its leverage importance to the Welsh economy. It needs to be done swiftly, because the rest of the world is also alert to the economic potential of creative industries. I am not just talking about other parts of the UK; I am talking about China and Thailand—countries that are already out-performing us across a number of sectors. On Friday, the British Council is holding a seminar to encourage investment in India’s creative entrepreneurs.

Mae pwysigrwydd y diwydiannau creadigol i economi Cymru wedi cael ei godi yn y Siambr hon o’r blaen. Mae’r Cenhedloedd Unedig wedi nodi’r sector hwn fel un sy’n parhau i ddangos y gallai dyfu, hyd yn oed mewn cyfnod o ddirwasgiad. Dyma un maes o weithgarwch economaidd lle mae gan Lywodraeth Cymru gyfrifoldeb y mae’n rhaid ei ail-flaenoriaethu oherwydd ei bwysigrwydd yn denu at economi Cymru. Mae angen ei wneud yn gyflym, oherwydd bod gweddill y byd hefyd yn effro i botensial economaidd y diwydiannau creadigol. Nid wyf yn sôn am rannau eraill o’r DU yn unig; yr wyf yn sôn am Tsieina a Gwlad Thai—gwledydd sydd eisoes yn perfformio yn well na ni ar draws nifer o sectorau. Ar ddydd Gwener, bydd y Cyngor Prydeinig yn cynnal seminar i annog buddsoddi mewn entrepreneuriaid creadigol India.

Successive Welsh Governments wasted time in getting the creative industries strategy together. In recent evidence to the media task and finish group, Professor Hargreaves repeated that, despite improvements following his report, he remained concerned that the creative industries board was still slow out of traps. There has been a start: the siting of the BBC drama village in Cardiff and the investment in Glyndŵr University—which, I hope, will be continuing—are to be welcomed, as are excellent examples in the tertiary sector, such as Bridgend College. Cardiff’s inclusion in a new England-dominated knowledge exchange hub is also very interesting. I also welcome the £4.5 million for Skillset and approve the broadcasters’ financial and knowledge contributions to the training schemes offered, but we are still only talking about 12 apprenticeships in creative and digital media. Compare that to the UK national creative apprenticeships programme, which has seen 900 young people employed, with the latest cohort of 210 due to deliver a net gain to the UK economy of £2.4 million, and with a further £16.4 million of net gain due from the next five cohorts. Of the 150 jobs advertised this week in one of the journals aimed specifically at this sector, almost all of which had above-average salaries, not one of them was in Wales. This is one sector where the Welsh Government still needs to be more ambitious and wary that we do not fall behind in what is a very competitive market. I hope that the Minister for business will accept that when she considers how she will use the £216 million windfall to stimulate Wales’s economy.

Gwastraffodd Llywodraethau Cymru olynol amser wrth lunio strategaeth y diwydiannau creadigol. Mewn tystiolaeth ddiweddar i’r grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen ar y cyfryngau, ailadroddodd yr Athro Hargreaves, er gwaethaf gwelliannau yn dilyn ei adroddiad, ei fod yn parhau i bryderu bod y bwrdd diwydiannau creadigol yn dal i fod ar ei hol hi. Mae yna gychwyn wedi bod drwy leoli pentref drama’r BBC yng Nghaerdydd a’r buddsoddiad ym Mhrifysgol Glyndŵr—a fydd, gobeithiaf, yn parhau—sydd i’w croesawu, fel y mae enghreifftiau rhagorol yn y sector trydyddol, fel Coleg Pen-y-bont. Mae cynnwys Caerdydd mewn canolbwynt cyfnewid gwybodaeth newydd wedi ei ddominyddu gan Loegr hefyd yn ddiddorol iawn. Yr wyf hefyd yn croesawu’r £4.5 miliwn ar gyfer Skillset ac yn cymeradwyo cyfraniadau darlledwyr o arian a gwybodaeth i’r cynlluniau hyfforddiant a gynigir, ond yr ydym o hyd yn siarad am ond 12 o brentisiaethau yn y cyfryngau creadigol a digidol. Cymharwch hynny â rhaglen prentisiaethau creadigol cenedlaethol y DU, sydd wedi gweld 900 o bobl ifanc yn cael eu cyflogi, gyda’r garfan ddiweddaraf o 210 ar fin cyflwyno cynnydd net i economi’r DU o £2.4 miliwn, a £16.4 miliwn o gynnydd pellach i ddod o’r pum carfan nesaf. O’r 150 o swyddi a hysbysebwyd yr wythnos hon yn un o’r cyfnodolion sydd wedi’u hanelu’n benodol at y sector hwn, ac yr oedd gan bron pob un ohonynt gyflogau uwch na’r cyfartaledd, nid oedd yr un ohonynt yng Nghymru. Dyma un sector lle mae dal angen i Lywodraeth Cymru fod yn fwy uchelgeisiol a gwyliadwrus nad ydym yn syrthio y tu ôl mewn marchnad gystadleuol iawn. Gobeithiaf y bydd y Gweinidog busnes yn derbyn hynny pan fydd yn ystyried sut y bydd yn defnyddio’r swm annisgwyl o £216 miliwn i ysgogi economi Cymru.

My second example relates to the changes brought about by the Learning and Skills (Wales) Measure 2009. Despite the clear increase in the choice of subjects for students, especially in accessing vocational qualifications, the take-up of what is offered as part of the business and administration strand lags behind the take-up in other areas. This has been stated in evidence to the Children and Young People Committee and directly to me by headteachers in my region, with notable exceptions. The reasons put to me, subject to those notable exceptions, are that there are not enough quality training providers, whether in schools, colleges or the workplace, and that students are not used to thinking about their skills in commercial terms. Members may remember Stagecoach Group’s partnership with the Enterprise Education Trust, providing business-awareness training to hundreds of 16 to 19-year-olds and helping them to understand business and its role in the economy. The research that prompted that partnership showed that, beforehand, only a third of 14 to 19-year-olds had a positive impression of business; afterwards, the rating was 98 per cent. We need to learn from that partnership. We talk a lot in this Chamber about entrepreneurship and training a modern workforce, yet our 14 to 19-year-olds are either switching off from business or do not have access to inspiring business training providers. I hope, therefore, that the Minister for Education and Skills, and his Deputy Minister, will consider the opportunities that the Chancellor’s announcement might present in this regard, especially with the Welsh Government’s cuts to the 14-19 grant funding announced in the budget.

Mae fy ail enghraifft yn ymwneud â’r newidiadau a achosodd Mesur Dysgu a Sgiliau (Cymru) 2009. Er gwaethaf y cynnydd clir yn y dewis o bynciau ar gyfer myfyrwyr, yn enwedig o ran cael mynediad at gymwysterau galwedigaethol, mae’r niferoedd sy’n manteisio ar yr hyn a gynigir fel rhan o’r llinyn busnes a gweinyddu yn llusgo y tu ôl i’r niferoedd mewn ardaloedd eraill. Nodwyd hyn mewn tystiolaeth i’r Pwyllgor Plant a Phobl Ifanc ac yn uniongyrchol gyda fi gan benaethiaid yn fy rhanbarth, gydag eithriadau nodedig. Y rhesymau a roddwyd i mi, heblaw am yr eithriadau nodedig hynny, yw nad oes digon o ddarparwyr hyfforddiant o safon, boed mewn ysgolion, colegau neu’r gweithle, ac nad yw myfyrwyr yn gyfarwydd â meddwl am eu sgiliau mewn termau masnachol. Efallai bod Aelodau yn cofio partneriaeth Grŵp Stagecoach gyda’r Enterprise Education Trust, a oedd yn darparu hyfforddiant ymwybyddiaeth busnes i gannoedd o bobl 16 i 19 mlwydd oed, yn eu helpu i ddeall busnes a’i rôl yn yr economi. Yr oedd yr ymchwil a ysgogodd y bartneriaeth yn dangos, o flaen llaw, mai dim ond un rhan o dair o bobl 14 i 19 oed oedd ag argraff gadarnhaol o fusnes; wedyn, 98 y cant oedd y sgôr. Mae angen i ni ddysgu oddi wrth y bartneriaeth. Yr ydym yn siarad llawer yn y Siambr hon am entrepreneuriaeth a hyfforddi gweithlu modern, eto mae ein hieuenctid 14 i 19 oed naill ai’n ymwrthod â busnes neu heb fynediad at ddarparwyr hyfforddiant busnes sy’n eu hysbrydoli. Gobeithiaf, felly, y bydd y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Sgiliau a’i Ddirprwy Weinidog yn ystyried y cyfleoedd y gallai cyhoeddiad y Canghellor eu cyflwyno yn hyn o beth, yn enwedig gyda thoriadau Llywodraeth Cymru i’r arian grant 14-19 a gyhoeddwyd yn y gyllideb.

Mark Drakeford: Last week’s autumn statement demonstrates just how deep the crisis in the British economy has now become. There was a discussion here yesterday on whether the UK economy is on the brink of a double-dip recession; the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development thinks that it already is in recession again. The OECD predicts that real gross domestic product will fall by 0.1 per cent during the current quarter, and that it will fall again by 0.6 per cent in the next quarter. As the mover of the motion said, when you look at the detail of the autumn statement, you easily see where that prediction came from. The UK Government’s own text straightforwardly demonstrates that we are in the grip of a depression, and will remain so for at least another five years. On the basis of the autumn statement’s figures, output from the British economy will not return to its pre-recession peak until 2014, making this the deepest recession and the slowest recovery in the last 100 years.

Mark Drakeford: Mae datganiad yr hydref wythnos diwethaf yn dangos yn union pa mor ddwfn yw’r argyfwng yn economi Prydain erbyn hyn. Cafwyd trafodaeth yma ddoe ar p’un a yw economi’r DU ar drothwy ail ddirwasgiad. Mae’r Sefydliad ar gyfer Cydweithrediad a Datblygiad Economaidd yn credu ei bod eisoes mewn dirwasgiad eto. Mae’r sefydliad yn rhagweld y bydd  cynnyrch domestig gros go iawn yn gostwng o 0.1 y cant yn ystod y chwarter cyfredol, ac y bydd yn disgyn eto o 0.6 y cant yn y chwarter nesaf. Fel y dywedodd cynigydd y cynnig, pan edrychwch ar fanylion datganiad yr hydref, mae’n hawdd gweld tarddiad y darogan hwnnw. Mae geiriau Llywodraeth y DU ei hun yn dangos yn agored ein bod yng ngafael dirwasgiad, a bydd yn parhau felly am o leiaf pum mlynedd arall. Ar sail ffigurau datganiad yr hydref, ni fydd allbwn o economi Prydain yn dychwelyd i’w anterth cyn y dirwasgiad tan 2014, gan olygu mai’r dirwasgiad hwn fydd y dyfnaf a’r adferiad hwn fydd yr arafaf yn y 100 mlynedd diwethaf.

Against that utterly bleak position, what does the autumn statement aim to do? I will consider just four of the things that are proposed. First of all, the statement confirms that any gains that had been made in average household incomes in the first half of the last decade will be completely wiped out in the first half of this one. For those in the middle bracket of income distribution, real household incomes in 2015-16 will have retreated to where they were in 2002-03. In three years, of which this is the middle year, real incomes in the British economy will have dropped by an astonishing 4.7 per cent. Secondly, as we have heard around the Chamber, a two-year pay freeze for public-sector workers is to be followed by two further years in which pay will rise by a maximum of 1 per cent annually. When inflation is running at over 5 per cent, and you have a Government that switches to regressive indirect forms of taxation, real incomes are inevitably falling. Taken together, this amounts to a 16.5 per cent cut in the living standards of public-sector workers across the United Kingdom. However, that is not enough for Mr Osborne: it does not go far enough, as far as Wales is concerned. The analysis of the autumn statement by the Institute for Fiscal Studies clearly demonstrates that Wales stands to suffer most from any move to regional pay. A further reduction of up to 9 per cent in the incomes of public-sector workers in Wales would be the result of a move in that direction, which represents a race to the bottom in terms of pay and conditions. Does the UK Government not understand that, for every pound that you take out of the pocket of a public sector worker in Wales, you have a pound less to spend on goods and services—the things that private sector employers try to provide? It is economic madness.

Yn y sefyllfa hollol lwm honno, beth mae datganiad yr hydref yn ceisio ei wneud? Byddaf yn ystyried dim ond pedwar o’r pethau sy’n cael eu cynnig. Yn gyntaf oll, mae’r datganiad yn cadarnhau y bydd unrhyw enillion a wnaed mewn incwm cyfartalog aelwydydd yn ystod hanner cyntaf y ddegawd diwethaf yn cael eu dileu yn gyfan gwbl yn ystod hanner cyntaf y ddegawd hon. Bydd incwm teuluol go iawn pobl yn y dosbarth incwm canol yn 2015-16 wedi crebachu i ble’r oedd yn 2002-03. Mewn tair blynedd, a hon yw’r flwyddyn ganol, bydd incwm go iawn yn economi Prydain wedi gostwng yn rhyfeddol o 4.7 y cant. Yn ail, fel y clywsom o amgylch y Siambr, dilynir rhewi cyflogau gweithwyr sector cyhoeddus am ddwy flynedd gan ddwy flynedd bellach pan fydd tâl yn codi uchafswm o 1 y cant bob blwyddyn. Pan fo chwyddiant yn dros 5 y cant ac mae gennych Lywodraeth sy’n symud tuag at ffurfiau o drethi anuniongyrchol atchweliadol, mae incwm real yn anochel yn gostwng. Gyda’i gilydd, mae hyn yn cyfateb i doriad o 16.5 y cant yn safonau byw gweithwyr sector cyhoeddus ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny’n ddigon i Mr Osborne: nid yw’n mynd yn ddigon pell, cyn belled ag y mae Cymru yn y cwestiwn. Mae dadansoddiad yr Institute of Fiscal Studies o ddatganiad yr hydref yn dangos yn glir mai Cymru fydd yn dioddef fwyaf o unrhyw symudiad i dâl rhanbarthol. Gostyngiad pellach o hyd at 9 y cant yn incwm gweithwyr y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru fyddai canlyniad symudiad i’r cyfeiriad hwnnw, sy’n cynrychioli ras i’r gwaelod o ran cyflog ac amodau. Onid yw Llywodraeth y DU yn deall, am bob punt yr ydych yn cymryd allan o boced gweithiwr sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru, fod punt yn llai i’w wario ar nwyddau a gwasanaethau—y pethau y mae cyflogwyr sector preifat yn ceisio eu darparu? Mae’n wallgofrwydd economaidd.

The third point relating to the autumn statement is on child poverty. Nearly three-quarters of the reduction in child poverty achieved in Wales in the last decade has already been lost since the coalition Government came to power. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation concludes that the remainder will be gone within the next two years. Again, for Mr Osborne, that was not enough. The autumn statement freezes the working tax credit and reverses an earlier coalition pledge to increase the child element of the child tax credit by more than inflation. The first of these decisions takes £265 million out of the pockets of the least well-off. The second takes £975 million from families struggling to bring up children. The result is that every single piece of ground so painfully won by Labour will be lost, and a minimum of 100,000 extra children will be in poverty as a result of the deliberate decisions that were made by the coalition Government and announced last week.

Mae’r trydydd pwynt yn ymwneud â datganiad yr hydref am dlodi plant. Mae bron i dri chwarter y gostyngiad mewn tlodi plant a gyflawnwyd yng Nghymru yn y ddegawd diwethaf eisoes wedi cael ei golli ers i’r Llywodraeth glymblaid ddod i rym. Mae Sefydliad Joseph Rowntree yn dod i’r casgliad y bydd y gweddill yn mynd o fewn y ddwy flynedd nesaf. Unwaith eto, nid oedd hynny’n ddigon i Mr Osborne. Mae datganiad yr hydref yn rhewi’r credyd treth gwaith a gwrthdroi addewid cynharach gan y glymblaid i gynyddu elfen blant y credyd treth plant yn uwch na chwyddiant. Mae’r penderfyniad cyntaf yn cymryd £265 miliwn allan o bocedi’r rhai â lleiaf o fodd. Mae’r ail yn cymryd £975 miliwn oddi ar deuluoedd sy’n ei chael yn anodd i fagu plant. Y canlyniad yw y bydd pob darn o dir a enillwyd mor boenus gan Lafur yn cael ei golli, a bydd o leiaf 100,000 o blant ychwanegol mewn tlodi o ganlyniad i’r penderfyniadau bwriadol a wnaeth y Llywodraeth glymblaid ac a gyhoeddwyd yr wythnos diwethaf.

Finally, as the autumn statement makes clear, public sector net borrowing is expected to total £111 billion more over the next five years than was forecast by the Chancellor in his March budget. Not only is his plan not working in terms of supporting growth and reducing unemployment, but it is not even achieving his own myopic concentration on reducing Government borrowing. As a result, what little capacity there was for growth in the British economy is being strangled out of it—knowingly, deliberately and with deep damage here in Wales. I shall be glad to support this motion.

Yn olaf, fel mae datganiad yr hydref yn gwneud yn eglur, mae disgwyl i fenthyca net y sector cyhoeddus i ddod yn gyfanswm o £111 biliwn yn fwy dros y pum mlynedd nesaf nag a ragwelodd y Canghellor yn ei gyllideb ym mis Mawrth. Nid yn unig nad yw ei gynllun yn gweithio o ran cefnogi twf a lleihau diweithdra, ond nid yw hyd yn oed yn cyflawni lleihau benthyca gan y Llywodraeth, sef yr hyn mae’n canolbwyntio’n gibddall arno. O ganlyniad, mae’r ychydig gapasiti oedd yno ar gyfer twf yn economi Prydain yn cael ei dagu—yn ymwybodol, yn fwriadol a chan achosi niwed dwfn yma yng Nghymru. Byddaf yn falch i gefnogi’r cynnig hwn.

The First Minister: I welcome the opportunity to debate this subject today, as I support the motion proposed by Plaid Cymru, as will my party.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr wyf yn croesawu’r cyfle i drafod y pwnc hwn heddiw, gan fy mod yn cefnogi’r cynnig a gynigiodd Plaid Cymru, fel y bydd fy mhlaid.

It is clear from the Chancellor’s autumn statement last week that the UK Government’s economic policies are not working. The independent Office for Budget Responsibility has forecast that growth will be less than 1 per cent this year and next. There is no escaping the fact that the economy is close to returning to recession. The Chancellor says that his plan aims to bring down public debt, but his own figures show that borrowing and debt will be higher than forecast, and will take longer to repay. The books will not be balanced until the next general election, and austerity in public spending will continue until at least 2016 or 2017.

Mae’n amlwg o ddatganiad yr hydref y Canghellor yr wythnos diwethaf nad yw polisïau economaidd Llywodraeth y DU yn gweithio. Mae’r Swyddfa Cyfrifoldeb Cyllidebol annibynnol wedi rhagweld y bydd twf yn llai nag 1 y cant eleni a’r flwyddyn nesaf. Nid oes dianc rhag y ffaith bod yr economi yn agos at ddychwelyd i ddirwasgiad. Mae’r Canghellor yn dweud bod ei gynllun yn anelu i leihau dyled gyhoeddus, ond mae ei ffigurau ei hun yn dangos y bydd benthyca a dyled yn uwch nag a ragwelwyd ac yn cymryd mwy o amser i ad-dalu. Ni fydd y cyfrifon yn dod yn gytbwys nes yr etholiad cyffredinol nesaf a bydd llymder mewn gwariant cyhoeddus yn parhau tan o leiaf 2016 neu 2017.

I am happy to restate the fact that we have been pushing the UK Government for more action for the last 18 months. In particular, we pressed successfully for the electrification of the Great Western main line, and we continue to press the UK Government to complete electrification to Swansea, and to electrify the Valleys lines. I will continue to take every opportunity to press our view to the UK Government that its deficit reduction plan goes too far too fast, and that the policy should be relaxed to boost investment to stimulate the economy.

Yr wyf yn hapus ailddatgan y ffaith ein bod wedi bod yn gwthio Llywodraeth y DU i weithredu’n fwy dros y 18 mis diwethaf. Yn benodol, yr ydym wedi pwyso yn llwyddiannus am drydaneiddio prif lein y Great Western, ac yr ydym yn parhau i bwyso ar Lywodraeth y DU i gwblhau trydaneiddio i Abertawe ac i drydaneiddio rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd. Byddaf yn parhau i fanteisio ar bob cyfle i bwyso ar Lywodraeth y DU mai ein barn yw bod ei chynllun lleihau’r diffyg ariannol yn mynd yn rhy bell yn rhy gyflym, ac y dylid llacio’r polisi i hybu buddsoddi i ysgogi’r economi.

I am pleased that the UK Government is now taking some steps towards acknowledging this view. The Chancellor announced some welcome steps last week, such as the recognition of the importance of infrastructure. The £216 million capital consequential is to be welcomed, as is the commitment to work with the Welsh Government on M4 improvements. Eight days after the Chancellor’s statement, however, we still do not know whether there will be any revenue consequentials or not. The Treasury cannot tell us. We have tried and tried to get sense, but we cannot get it. Today, I have written to the Secretary of State for Wales, asking her to find out what the revenue consequentials are. Certainly, the Government will not tell us, and I suspect that that is because it has no idea what the consequentials might be as it has no idea where the money is coming from, as was announced in the statement. I have met the Prime Minister and I have been corresponding with him in recent weeks to press for increased investment in vital road and rail infrastructure in Wales.

Yr wyf yn falch bod Llywodraeth y DU yn cymryd rhai camau yn awr tuag at gydnabod y farn hon. Cyhoeddodd y Canghellor rai camau y dylid eu croesawu’r wythnos diwethaf, fel cydnabyddiaeth o bwysigrwydd seilwaith. Dylid croesawu’r swm cyfalaf canlyniadol o £216 miliwn a’r ymrwymiad i weithio gyda Llywodraeth Cymru ar welliannau i’r M4. Wyth diwrnod ar ôl datganiad y Canghellor, fodd bynnag, yr ydym dal ddim yn gwybod a fydd unrhyw symiau canlyniadol refeniw ai peidio. Ni all y Trysorlys ddweud wrthym. Yr ydym wedi ceisio a cheisio cael synnwyr, ond ni allwn ei gael. Heddiw, yr wyf wedi ysgrifennu at yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Gymru yn gofyn iddi ddarganfod beth yw’r symiau canlyniadol refeniw. Yn sicr, ni fydd y Llywodraeth yn dweud wrthym, ac yr wyf yn amau bod hynny oherwydd ei fod heb syniad beth allai’r symiau canlyniadol fod, fel nad oes syniad ganddi o ble mae’r arian yn dod, fel y cyhoeddwyd yn y datganiad. Yr wyf wedi cyfarfod y Prif Weinidog ac yr wyf wedi bod yn gohebu ag ef yn yr wythnosau diwethaf i bwyso am fwy o fuddsoddiad yn seilwaith rheilffyrdd a ffyrdd hanfodol yng Nghymru.

Trof yn awr at rai o’r pwyntiau a wnaed gan Blaid Cymru. Mae’n un peth i fynd ymlaen ac ymlaen am Adeiladu dros Gymru, ond y pwynt yw hwn: o ble mae’r arian yn dod os ydych yn mynd i’w fenthyg? Yn ystod y cyfnod hwn pan mae’n anodd i wledydd fenthyca arian mawr, o ble mae’r arian yn dod?

I will now turn to some of the points made by Plaid Cymru. It is one thing to go on and on about Build for Wales, but the point is this: where is the money coming from if you are going to borrow it? At a time when it is difficult for nations to borrow large sums

5.00 p.m.

Yn ail, o ran y cynllun ardrethi busnes, cynllun yr Alban ydyw, wrth gwrs. Mae busnesau bach yn wynebu sawl her: o’r archfarchnadoedd ac o siopa ar-lein. A oes tystiolaeth bod cynllun yr Alban wedi gweithio i helpu busnesau bach? Os oes, nid wyf wedi ei weld.

Secondly, on the business rate relief scheme, it is, of course, the Scottish scheme. Small businesses face a number of challenges: from supermarkets and from online shopping. Is there any evidence that the Scottish scheme has worked in assisting small businesses? If there is, I have not seen it.

Ynglŷn â’r parth rhyngwladol, yr ydym yn hollol gefnogol. Mae’n bwysig bod yr un fantais i Gymru ag sydd i’r Alban o ran hyn.

On the international domain, we are very supportive. It is important that Wales has the same advantages as Scotland in this regard.

Ynglŷn â mastiau ffonau symudol, nid oes eu heisiau—mae ffordd o greu signal ffôn symudol drwy ddefnyddio band eang, ac mae hynny’n rhywbeth yr ydym yn edrych arno wrth inni gyflwyno band eang ar draws Cymru gyfan. Mae ffordd o’i sicrhau heb fastiau.

On mobile phone masts, we do not need them—there is a way of generating a mobile phone signal by using broadband, and that is something that we are looking into as we roll out broadband across Wales. There is a way of securing that without masts.

The Minister for Finance and Leader of the House has met both Lord Sassoon, the Treasury Minister with responsibility for infrastructure, and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to seek to influence the direction of the UK Government infrastructure plan. My Minister for Finance, our officials and I will vigorously pursue the matter of turning the UK Government’s rhetoric into concrete action with regard to those pledges of extra investment in road and rail improvements and with regard to the issue of Severn bridge tolls referred to by the Chancellor.

Mae’r Gweinidog Cyllid ac Arweinydd y Tŷ wedi cyfarfod Arglwydd Sassoon, Gweinidog y Trysorlys sy’n gyfrifol am seilwaith, a Phrif Ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys i geisio dylanwadu ar gyfeiriad cynllun seilwaith Llywodraeth y DU. Bydd fy Ngweinidog Cyllid, ein swyddogion a minnau’n mynd ar drywydd y mater hwn yn egnïol er mwyn ceisio troi rhethreg Llywodraeth y DU yn gweithredu pendant o ran yr addewidion hynny o fuddsoddiad ychwanegol mewn gwelliannau ffyrdd a rheilffyrdd ac o ran y mater o dollau pont Hafren y cyfeiriwyd atynt gan y Canghellor.

In addition to our negotiations with the UK Government over future large-scale infrastructure projects, we recently announced over £1.3 billion of investment in hospitals, schools and major infrastructure projects across Wales in this financial year. In the last two weeks alone, we have detailed over £140 million of new investment in support for business growth, schools and hospitals, transport networks and next generation broadband. We have also set out our plans to boost local government borrowing over the next few years, and that should provide between £100 million and £170 million to support highway improvements right across Wales. We are working very actively to boost investment in public infrastructure at this critical time. We are showing our commitment to boosting growth in the economy and supporting the hard-pressed construction industry, as well as providing the conditions necessary for the private sector to grow.

Yn ogystal â’n trafodaethau gyda Llywodraeth y DU ynghylch prosiectau seilwaith ar raddfa fawr yn y dyfodol, yn ddiweddar, cyhoeddwyd dros £1.3 biliwn o fuddsoddiad mewn ysbytai, ysgolion a phrosiectau seilwaith mawr ledled Cymru yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon. Yn y pythefnos diwethaf yn unig, yr ydym wedi manylu dros £140 miliwn o fuddsoddiad newydd mewn cymorth ar gyfer twf busnesau, ysgolion ac ysbytai, rhwydweithiau trafnidiaeth a band eang y genhedlaeth nesaf. Yr ydym hefyd wedi nodi ein cynlluniau i hybu benthyca llywodraeth leol dros y blynyddoedd nesaf, a ddylai ddarparu rhwng £100 miliwn a £170 miliwn i gefnogi gwelliannau priffyrdd ledled Cymru. Yr ydym wrthi’n gweithio i hybu buddsoddiad mewn seilwaith cyhoeddus yn y cyfnod allweddol hwn. Yr ydym yn dangos ein hymrwymiad i hybu twf yn yr economi a chefnogi’r diwydiant adeiladu sydd dan bwysau, yn ogystal â darparu’r amodau angenrheidiol er mwyn i’r sector preifat i dyfu.

We have also set out a package of economic stimulus measures. Last month, we announced a package that supports the skills and apprenticeship agenda—it is a package that generates immediate benefits for our economy while complementing our long-term aims.

Yr ydym hefyd wedi gosod allan pecyn o fesurau i sbarduno’r economi. Fis diwethaf, bu inni gyhoeddi pecyn sy’n cefnogi’r agenda sgiliau a phrentisiaethau—mae’n becyn sy’n cynhyrchu manteision sydyn i’n heconomi tra’n ategu ein nodau hirdymor.

We are extending the young recruits programme. There is an additional £3 million for the Skills Growth Wales programme, and additional money for capital investment projects across Wales. The Minister for business announced two major new funding packages totalling £55 million to support business growth in Wales, creating up to 5,000 new jobs and safeguarding many, many more. This package of support will be a catalyst for growth, enabling businesses to invest in capital projects that will result in the creation and safeguarding of jobs.

Yr ydym yn ymestyn y rhaglen recriwtiaid ifanc. Mae £3 miliwn ychwanegol ar gyfer y rhaglen Sgiliau Twf Cymru, ac arian ychwanegol ar gyfer prosiectau buddsoddi cyfalaf ar draws Cymru. Cyhoeddodd y Gweinidog busnes dau becyn cyllid newydd sylweddol gwerth £55 miliwn i gefnogi twf busnes yng Nghymru, gan greu hyd at 5,000 o swyddi newydd a diogelu llawer iawn mwy. Bydd y pecyn cymorth yn gatalydd ar gyfer twf, gan alluogi busnesau i fuddsoddi mewn prosiectau cyfalaf a fydd yn arwain at greu a diogelu swyddi.

The Assembly will know, of course, about the money that has already been invested in the Welsh jobs fund, and discussions are already under way on infrastructure projects that can be accelerated as a result of the £216 million consequential from the Chancellor’s autumn statement last week. Creating jobs will be our guiding light in that decision-making process.

Bydd y Cynulliad yn gwybod, wrth gwrs, am yr arian sydd eisoes wedi ei fuddsoddi yn y gronfa swyddi Cymreig, ac mae trafodaethau eisoes ar waith ar brosiectau seilwaith y gellir eu cyflymu yn sgil y £216 miliwn canlyniadol o ddatganiad yr hydref gan y Canghellor yr wythnos ddiwethaf. Bydd creu swyddi yn ein harwain yn y broses honno o wneud penderfyniadau.

What do we hear from Plaid Cymru? We hear that the Government is deliberately sitting back and allowing the Tories to throw everything at Wales. Plaid Cymru clearly has no interest in the money that has been provided for Welsh jobs and Welsh businesses.

Beth a glywn gan Blaid Cymru? Yr ydym yn clywed bod y Llywodraeth yn eistedd yn ôl yn fwriadol ac yn caniatáu i’r Torïaid daflu popeth at Gymru. Mae’n amlwg nad oes gan Blaid Cymru unrhyw ddiddordeb yn yr arian a ddarparwyd ar gyfer swyddi a busnesau yng Nghymru.

I join Peter Black in welcoming the announcement made by Deputy Prime Minister on 25 November regarding the new Department for Work and Pensions youth contract. We await further details on how many work and training places will be created in Wales and what the budgetary implications might be.

Ymunaf â Peter Black i groesawu’r cyhoeddiad a wnaed gan y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog ar 25 Tachwedd ynglŷn â chytundeb ieuenctid newydd yr Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau. Yr ydym yn aros am fwy o fanylion o ran y nifer o leoedd gwaith a hyfforddiant a fydd yn cael eu creu yng Nghymru a’r goblygiadau cyllidebol posibl.

Finally, I will say something on the subject of regional pay for the public sector. I listened carefully to the speakers from the Conservative benches. I was told that there would be no suggestion of regional pay; merely that pay in the public sector would be made more responsive to local conditions. Can someone tell me what the difference is? I do not know. Janet Finch-Saunders went on to say that, where private sector pay was too low to compete with the public sector, public sector pay should drop. What that means is that many public sector workers in Wales will live in fear of seeing their salaries slashed and their conditions destroyed, and low paid workers in Wales will fear finding themselves in the position of being paid less than those who are doing the same job in England.

Yn olaf, dywedaf rywbeth ar y pwnc o gyflogau rhanbarthol ar gyfer y sector cyhoeddus. Gwrandewais yn ofalus ar siaradwyr o feinciau’r Ceidwadwyr. Dywedwyd wrthyf na fyddai unrhyw awgrym o dâl rhanbarthol; dim ond y byddai cyflogau yn y sector cyhoeddus yn cael eu gwneud yn fwy ymatebol i amgylchiadau lleol. A all rhywun ddweud wrthyf beth yw’r gwahaniaeth? Nid wyf yn gwybod. Aeth Janet Finch-Saunders ymlaen i ddweud, lle mae cyflogau’r sector preifat yn rhy isel i gystadlu â’r sector cyhoeddus, dylai cyflogau yn y sector cyhoeddus ostwng. Mae hynny’n golygu y bydd llawer o weithwyr yn y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru yn ofni y bydd eu cyflogau’n gostwng yn sylweddol a’u hamodau yn cael eu dinistrio, a bydd gweithwyr cyflog isel yng Nghymru yn ofni y byddant mewn sefyllfa o gael llai o dâl na’r rhai sy’n gwneud yr un gwaith yn Lloegr.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Thank you, First Minister, for taking the intervention. Why was it that your Government introduced regional pay for HM Courts and Tribunal Services in Wales, and why is it on the parliamentary record that the then Secretary of State, Paul Murphy, supported regional pay in 2008?

Andrew R.T. Davies: Diolch, Brif Weinidog, am dderbyn yr ymyriad. Pam y bu i’ch Llywodraeth chi gyflwyno cyflogau rhanbarthol ar gyfer Gwasanaeth Llysoedd a Thribiwnlys Ei Mawrhydi yng Nghymru, a pham ydyw yn y cofnod seneddol bod yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol ar y pryd, Paul Murphy, wedi cefnogi tâl rhanbarthol yn 2008?

The First Minister: You are in Government. [Laughter.] Your party is in Government in London. Your party is proposing cuts in salaries for doctors, nurses, police officers, cleaners, porters and social workers. You are the party proposing cuts in the salaries of some of the lowest paid people in the public sector. Weasel words will not help you. Stand up and be counted.

Y Prif Weinidog: Chi sydd yn y Llywodraeth. [Chwerthin.] Eich plaid chi sy’n llywodraethu yn Llundain. Mae eich plaid yn cynnig toriadau mewn cyflogau i feddygon, nyrsys, swyddogion yr heddlu, glanhawyr, porthorion a gweithwyr cymdeithasol. Chi yw’r blaid sy’n cynnig torri cyflogau rhai o’r bobl ar y cyflogau isaf yn y sector cyhoeddus. Ni fydd geiriau slec yn eich helpu. Dangoswch eich ochr.

We will not be engaging with the UK Government over regional pay. We will not be working with the UK Government on regional pay. We will resist the UK Government’s plans for regional pay to cut the salaries of Welsh workers. Today, I have written—the leader of the opposition wants to intervene—

Ni fyddwn yn ymgysylltu â Llywodraeth y DU ynghylch cyflogau rhanbarthol. Ni fyddwn yn gweithio gyda Llywodraeth y DU ar gyflogau rhanbarthol. Byddwn yn gwrthwynebu cynlluniau Llywodraeth y DU ar gyfer tâl rhanbarthol i dorri cyflogau gweithwyr Cymru. Heddiw, yr wyf wedi ysgrifennu—mae arweinydd yr wrthblaid am ymyrryd—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. The First Minister has given way.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi ildio.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Thank you for giving way. Would it not be better for the Welsh Government to engage with the review, so that it could stand up for public sector workers, instead of using this as a political football? Your Government was talking about this in the early 2000s—it is on the parliamentary record—and the courts service had it inflicted upon them.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Diolch ichi am ildio. Oni fyddai’n well i Lywodraeth Cymru ymgysylltu â’r adolygiad, fel y gallai sefyll i fyny dros weithwyr yn y sector cyhoeddus, yn hytrach na defnyddio hwn fel pêl-droed wleidyddol? Yr oedd eich Llywodraeth yn sôn am hyn yn gynnar yn y 2000au—mae’n ymddangos yn y cofnod seneddol—a gorfodwyd hyn ar y gwasanaeth llysoedd.

The First Minister: I call on the leader of the opposition to show some backbone. Stand up now and tell us that you will defend the terms and conditions of public sector workers in Wales. I give you the opportunity.

Y Prif Weinidog: Galwaf ar arweinydd yr wrthblaid i ddangos rhywfaint o asgwrn cefn. Sefwch i fyny yn awr a dywedwch wrthym y byddwch yn amddiffyn telerau ac amodau gweithwyr y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Rhoddaf gyfle i chi.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. First Minister, you are well out of time. You need to conclude your remarks now. We cannot take any more interventions.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Brif Weinidog, yr ydych wedi hen fynd dros amser. Mae angen ichi gloi eich sylwadau yn awr. Ni allwn dderbyn rhagor o ymyriadau.

The First Minister: I have today written to the Secretary of State asking her to stand up for Welsh public sector workers and to resist any moves to regional pay that will destroy the terms and conditions of Welsh public sector workers. We, as a Government, will lead. We, as a Government, will inspire. We, as a Government, will show ambition. We, as a Government, will not let our people down. [Interruption.]

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr wyf wedi ysgrifennu heddiw at yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol yn gofyn iddi amddiffyn gweithwyr sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru ac i wrthsefyll unrhyw symudiadau i dâl rhanbarthol a fydd yn dinistrio telerau ac amodau gweithwyr sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Byddwn ni, fel Llywodraeth, yn arwain. Byddwn ni, fel Llywodraeth, yn ysbrydoli. Byddwn ni, fel Llywodraeth, yn dangos uchelgais. Ni fyddwn ni, fel Llywodraeth, yn siomi ein pobl. [Torri ar draws.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. The debate is not over yet. I call on Alun Ffred Jones to reply to the debate.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Nid yw’r ddadl wedi dod i ben eto. Galwaf ar Alun Ffred Jones i ymateb i’r ddadl.

Alun Ffred Jones: Diolch am y cyfle i grynhoi’r ddadl hon, gan obeithio y gallwn ddychwelyd at y pwnc canolog, sef sefyllfa economi Cymru a diweithdra yng Nghymru, a cheisio chwilio am atebion o fewn gallu’r Cynulliad hwn, yn hytrach na gwneud dim on beio’r naill na’r llall. Er fy mod yn cytuno â llawer o’r hyn a ddywedodd y Prif Weinidog, yn y pen draw, nid oes llawer o bwynt taflu mwd, ar adeg fel hon, pan mae 137,000 o bobl Cymru yn ddi-waith—dros 9 y cant o’n poblogaeth ac un o bob pedwar o’n pobl ifanc, o leiaf, allan o waith. Mae arnaf ofn gweld y ffigurau sydd i’w cyhoeddi ar 16 Rhagfyr. Dyna’r sefyllfa yr ydym ynddi. Yr oedd Mark Drakeford yn huawdl yn dadansoddi’r sefyllfa ryngwladol a’r un ym Mhrydain.

Alun Ffred Jones: Thank you for the opportunity to summarise this debate, in the hope that we will be able to return to the core subject, namely the state of the Welsh economy and unemployment in Wales, and try to find answers within the competence of this Assembly, rather than do nothing but play the blame game. Although I agree with much of what the First Minister was saying, there is no point, ultimately, in mudslinging at a time like this, when there are 137,000 people in Wales unemployed—over 9 per cent of the population, and at least one in four of our young people. I am afraid of what the next figures, to be released on 16 December, will show. That is the situation that we are in. Mark Drakeford eloquently analysed the international situation and the British position.

Y cwestiwn sy’n codi yw: beth y gallwn wneud yn y sefyllfa yr ydym ynddi? Beth ddylai’r Llywodraeth wneud yn y cyfwng hwn? Er bod nifer o leisiau o feinciau’r Llywodraeth yn y gorffennol diweddar wedi bod yn dweud nad yw’r prif offerynnau gennym i effeithio ar hyn, mae dyletswydd yn dal i fod ar y Llywodraeth i weithredu o fewn ei gallu ac i ddefnyddio dychymyg a brwdfrydedd i ymateb i’r sefyllfa.

The question that arises is this: what can we do in the situation in which we find ourselves? What should the Government do in this crisis? Even though a number of voices on the Government benches have been saying that we do not have the main tools to impact upon the situation, there is still a duty on the Government to work within its competence and to use its imagination and enthusiasm to respond to the situation.

Un peth a ddysgais o weithio mewn gwahanol feysydd yw bod rhaid cael y penderfyniadau mawr yn gywir. Hoff arfer gwleidyddion, mae arnaf ofn, yw mynd ar ôl mentrau a chynlluniau peilot ac yn y blaen, ond, yn y bôn, sicrhau bod y sylfeini’n gywir sydd ei angen. Yn yr achos hwn, y prif arf sydd gan y Llywodraeth yw gwario cyhoeddus ar gynlluniau cyfalaf. Wrth wynebu’r storm economaidd, mae’n amlwg bod rhaid inni roi hwb i’n cwmnïau peirianneg ac adeiladu. Y cwmnïau hynny, yn y pen draw, a fydd yn cyflogi ac yn ail-gyflogi ac yn cynnig cyfleoedd i brentisiaid.

One thing that I have learned from working in various fields is that the big decisions have to be right. I am afraid that politicians usually like to go after initiatives, pilot schemes and so on, but, basically, the foundations need to be secure. In this case, the main weapon at the Government’s disposal is public spending on capital schemes. In facing this economic storm, it is clear that we have to boost our engineering and construction companies. It is those companies, ultimately, which will be employing and re-employing people and offering apprenticeships.

Dyna pam mae angen cynllun strategol eang, cydlynus sy’n dangos ôl meddwl a chynllunio bwriadus. Dyna pam, hefyd, yr ydym ni ar y meinciau hyn yn credu bod angen defnyddio arian preifat i ategu’r ychydig arian cyhoeddus sydd ar gael. Yr ydym wedi cynnig model Adeiladu dros Gymru; os oes cynlluniau a modelau eraill, gadewch i ni fynd ar eu hôl. Mae George Osborne ei hun yn bwriadu denu arian o’r sector preifat er mwyn ceisio rhoi hwb i’r sector adeiladu. Yr wyf yn gefnogol i’r fenter honno ond y cwestiwn yw: a allwn wneud hynny yng Nghymru, ynteu a ydym yn mynd i ddisgwyl i George Osborne ddod ag atebion inni? Nid wyf yn credu bod hynny’n ddigon da.

That is why we need a broad strategic scheme, which is cohesive, well-thought-out and well planned. That is why we, on these benches, also feel that we need to bring in private funding to add to the small amount of public funding available. We have proposed a Build for Wales model; if there are other schemes and models, let us pursue them. George Osborne himself has said that he intends to attract funding from the private sector in order to try to boost the construction sector. I am supportive of that venture, but the question is this: can we do that in Wales, or are we going to wait for George Osborne to bring us the answers? I do not believe that that is good enough.

Ieuan Wyn Jones stated that our main priority is for the Government to be more ambitious in dealing with the Treasury. The Government needs to establish a Build-for-Wales-type scheme, an enhanced small business bonus scheme and an enhanced young recruits programme. On the small business bonus scheme, as operated in Scotland, if you spoke to local traders and small businesses, you would know how important, in these dire days, that type of support would be in retaining staff and in maintaining confidence on the high street.

Dywedodd Ieuan Wyn Jones mai ein prif flaenoriaeth yw i’r Llywodraeth fod yn fwy uchelgeisiol wrth ddelio gyda’r Trysorlys. Mae angen i’r Llywodraeth sefydlu cynllun yn debyg i Adeiladu dros Gymru, gwell cynllun bonws i fusnesau bach a gwell rhaglen recriwtiaid ifanc. Ar y cynllun bonws i fusnesau bach, fel sydd yn gweithredu yn yr Alban, pe byddech yn siarad â masnachwyr lleol a busnesau bach, byddech yn gwybod pa mor bwysig, yn y dyddiau enbyd hyn, fyddai’r math hwnnw o gefnogaeth o ran cadw staff ac wrth gynnal hyder ar y stryd fawr.

As for Janet Finch-Saunders’s contribution, I concur 100 per cent with all the comments made by Mick Antoniw. This issue of public sector pay to be more responsive to local circumstances are weasel words, hiding the truth. If that came about, in many rural areas and also in the Valleys areas, it would be ruinous. We reject it out of hand.

O ran cyfraniad Janet Finch-Saunders, cytunaf 100 y cant gyda’r holl sylwadau a wnaed gan Mick Antoniw. Mae’r mater hwn o gael tâl yn y sector cyhoeddus i fod yn fwy ymatebol i amgylchiadau lleol yn eiriau slec, sy’n cuddio’r gwir. Petai hynny’n digwydd, mewn llawer o ardaloedd gwledig ac yn y Cymoedd, byddai’n andwyol. Yr ydym yn ei wrthod yn llwyr.

As for Eluned Parrott, she said that they will abstain on amendment 3 for the simple reason that the £200 million cash injection has to be set alongside the £615 million that will be taken out of the capital programme over the next few years.

Dywedodd Eluned Parrott y byddant yn ymatal ar welliant 3 am y rheswm syml bod yn rhaid ystyried y chwistrelliad ariannol o £200 miliwn ochr yn ochr â’r £615 miliwn a fydd yn cael ei gymryd allan o’r rhaglen gyfalaf dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf.

Suzy Davies alluded to the importance of the creative industries and the arts, which should, of course, be part and parcel of any regeneration plan put forward by the Government.

Cyfeiriodd Suzy Davies at bwysigrwydd y diwydiannau creadigol a’r celfyddydau, a ddylai, wrth gwrs, fod yn rhan annatod o unrhyw gynllun adfywio a gyflwynwyd gan y Llywodraeth.

I will conclude by agreeing again with much of what Mark Drakeford said. He turned his ire on the economic madness of the Chancellor’s schemes; I can only agree 100 per cent. However, I come back to some of the remarks by the First Minister. Yes, by all means blame the coalition Government in London, but we must be more flexible and have a more coherent approach in terms of public spending and the capital programme. We need to be ambitious and be ready to entertain new ideas and new approaches in these very difficult times. In discussing the ambitious urban metro scheme earlier, someone said that the question was not whether we can afford it, but whether we can afford not to go ahead with such a scheme. The same applies to our capital spend, for the sake of our youth and for the sake of communities all over Wales.

Yr wyf am gloi drwy gytuno eto â llawer o’r hyn a ddywedodd Mark Drakeford. Trodd ei ddicter ar wallgofrwydd economaidd cynlluniau’r Canghellor; ni allaf ond cytuno 100 y cant. Fodd bynnag, dychwelaf at rai o sylwadau’r Prif Weinidog. Ar bob cyfrif, rhowch y bai ar y Llywodraeth glymblaid yn Llundain, ond mae’n rhaid i ni fod yn fwy hyblyg a chael dull mwy cydlynol o ran gwariant cyhoeddus a’r rhaglen gyfalaf. Mae angen i ni fod yn uchelgeisiol a bod yn barod i ystyried syniadau newydd ac ymagweddau newydd yn yr amseroedd anodd iawn hyn. Wrth drafod y cynllun metro uchelgeisiol yn gynharach, dywedodd rhywun na ddylwn gwestiynu a allwn ei fforddio, ond a allwn fforddio peidio â bwrw ymlaen â chynllun o’r fath. Mae’r un peth yn wir am ein gwariant cyfalaf, er mwyn ein pobl ifanc ac er lles cymunedau ledled Cymru.

The Presiding Officer: The proposal is that the motion be agreed without amendment. Is there any objection? I see that there is. Therefore, voting on this item will be deferred until voting time.

Y Llywydd: Y cynnig yw bod y cynnig yn cael ei dderbyn heb ei ddiwygio. A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? Gwelaf fod. Felly, gohiriaf y pleidleisio ar yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt and amendment 2 in the name of William Graham.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Jane Hutt a gwelliant 2 yn enw William Graham.

Cynnig NDM4877 Peter Black

Motion NDM4877 Peter Black

Mae Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

The National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn nodi:

1. Notes:

a. pwysigrwydd manwerthu i economi Cymru;

a. the importance of retail to the Welsh economy;

b. gwerth cymdeithasol stryd fawr fywiog i gymunedau lleol; ac

b. the social value of vibrant high streets to local communities; and

2. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i warchod y stryd fawr yng Nghymru drwy:

2. Calls on the Welsh government to protect Welsh high streets by:

a. Rhoi sylw i anghenion penodol manwerthwyr yn ei hadolygiad o ardrethi busnes a chynlluniau rhyddhad;

a. Addressing the specific needs of retailers in its review of business rates and relief schemes;

b. datblygu arweiniad ar gyfer awdurdodau lleol a fydd yn cynnwys cyngor ynghylch yr arfer gorau ar gyfer rheoli canol trefi; ac

b. developing guidance for local authorities containing best practice advice for town centre management; and

c. cydnabod effaith datblygiadau ar gyrion trefi ar y stryd fawr yn ei hadolygiad o’r system gynllunio.

c. acknowledging the effect of out-of-town developments on high streets in its review of the planning system.

Eluned Parrott: I move the motion in the name of Peter Black.

Eluned Parrott: Cynigiaf y cynnig yn enw Peter Black.

Members will be aware of the importance of town centres to their local economies and to the social fabric of their communities. However, many town centres are facing decline as the number of people using them drops. As those town centres face perhaps the most difficult Christmas of many people’s lifetimes, I felt that it was appropriate that we brought forward a motion to discuss the issues that this specific sector faces.

Bydd Aelodau’n ymwybodol o bwysigrwydd canol trefi i’w heconomïau lleol ac i wead cymdeithasol eu cymunedau. Fodd bynnag, mae llawer o drefi yn wynebu dirywiad wrth i nifer y bobl sy’n eu defnyddio ostwng. Wrth i nifer o drefi wynebu efallai’r Nadolig anoddaf yn oes llawer o bobl, roeddwn yn teimlo ei fod yn briodol ein bod yn cyflwyno cynnig i drafod y materion y mae’r sector hwn yn benodol yn eu hwynebu.

The town centres that we are talking about are not simply the shopping districts of our large cities; almost every town has or has had a high street that contained local shops, local businesses, cafes and services. Some of these are quite small and some serve much larger surrounding areas as well. In South Wales Central, examples include Barry, Penarth and Pontypridd, but these are now vulnerable small towns that need our protection.

Wrth sôn am ganol trefi, nid dim ond ardaloedd siopa ein dinasoedd mawr yr ydym yn sôn amdanynt; mae gan bron pob tref, neu yr oedd ar un adeg, stryd fawr a oedd yn cynnwys siopau lleol, busnesau lleol, caffis a gwasanaethau. Mae rhai o’r rhain yn eithaf bach ac mae rhai yn gwasanaethu ardaloedd cyfagos llawer mwy hefyd. Yng Nghanol De Cymru, ceir enghreifftiau megis y Barri, Penarth a Phontypridd, ond mae’r rhain yn awr yn drefi bach sydd dan fygythiad y mae angen inni eu hamddiffyn.

A reason often stated for the decline of the high street is the increasing emergence of out-of-town shopping centres, which have changed over the years. They have changed from being almost solely supermarkets to offering a far wider range of goods and services, which has increased the impact of their competition on traditional high streets.

Un rheswm a rhoddir yn aml am ddirywiad y stryd fawr yw ymddangosiad cynyddol canolfannau siopa y tu allan i’r dref, sydd wedi newid dros y blynyddoedd. Maent wedi newid o fod yn archfarchnadoedd yn unig i gynnig ystod llawer ehangach o nwyddau a gwasanaethau, sydd wedi cynyddu effaith eu cystadleuaeth ar y stryd fawr draddodiadol.

As well as this, the rise in recent years of internet shopping has also drawn customers away from town centres, especially for buying things such as entertainment products, books and other general shopping.

Yn ogystal â hyn, mae’r cynnydd yn siopa ar y rhyngrwyd yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf hefyd wedi tynnu cwsmeriaid i ffwrdd o ganol trefi, yn enwedig ar gyfer prynu pethau megis cynnyrch adloniant, llyfrau a siopa cyffredinol arall.

The effect of these two trends working together and at the same time is more than simply about increasing competition. It takes footfall away from our town centres and high streets, it means that fewer people are simply browsing and life ebbs away from those streets. This continues to undermine sales and business in high streets shops, it takes people away from high street services such as cafes and it sucks the heart out of our communities. 

Mae effaith y ddau dueddiad hyn yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd ac ar yr un pryd am fwy na dim ond cynyddu cystadleuaeth. Mae’n lleihau nifer yr ymwelwyr yng nghanol ein trefi a strydoedd mawr, mae’n golygu bod llai o bobl yn edrych yn y siopau ac y mae bywyd yn pallu oddi ar y strydoedd hynny. Mae hyn yn parhau i danseilio gwerthu a busnes mewn siopau ar y stryd fawr, mae’n cymryd pobl i ffwrdd oddi wrth wasanaethau’r stryd fawr megis caffis ac mae’n sugno’r bywyd allan o’n cymunedau.

5.15 p.m.

Town centres that are run down, either because shops are abandoned or because facilities have not been regenerated, are simply less attractive places for people to spend time. There are opportunities to turn things around. For example, when the UK Government removes the tax loophole that allows internet businesses in the Channel Islands to avoid value added tax, this could be an opportunity for town centres to regain some ground in that particular area, if we are nimble enough to give them a boost.

Mae canol trefi sydd wedi mynd rhwng y cŵn a’r brain, oherwydd bod siopau wedi cael eu gadael yn segur neu oherwydd bod cyfleusterau heb gael eu hadfywio, yn lleoedd llai deniadol i bobl dreulio amser ynddynt. Mae cyfleoedd i weddnewid pethau. Er enghraifft, pan fydd Llywodraeth y DU yn cau’r bwlch treth sy’n caniatáu i fusnesau rhyngrwyd yn Ynysoedd y Sianel osgoi treth ar werth, gallai hynny fod yn gyfle i ganol trefi adfer rhywfaint o dir yn y maes penodol hwnnw, os ydym yn ddigon cyflym i roi hwb iddynt.

There are a number of policy changes that the Welsh Government could effect in order to improve the viability of town centres, including improving its advice to authorities, making changes to the planning system, and helping councils with regeneration. Several Members in the Chamber will know that the Enterprise and Business Committee is currently looking at the issue of town-centre regeneration, on which it has been undertaking an inquiry for the major part of this term. I am hopeful that the committee’s report will be able to inform and assist the Government in developing proposals that can help protect our high streets.

Gallai Llywodraeth Cymru wneud nifer o newidiadau polisi er mwyn gwella hyfywedd canol trefi, gan gynnwys gwella ei chyngor i awdurdodau, gwneud newidiadau i’r system gynllunio, a helpu cynghorau gydag adfywio. Bydd sawl Aelod yn y Siambr yn gwybod bod y Pwyllgor Menter a Busnes ar hyn o bryd yn edrych ar adfywio canol trefi, a bu’n cynnal ymchwiliad ar hyn am y rhan fwyaf o’r tymor hwn. Gobeithio y bydd adroddiad y pwyllgor yn gallu llywio a chynorthwyo’r Llywodraeth i ddatblygu cynigion a all helpu i ddiogelu ein strydoedd mawr. 

In the motion today, we are calling for a comprehensive set of guidance notes—perhaps based on some of the evidence that we have heard in committee—for local authorities, to help them share best-practice advice on town-centre management across Wales. Specifically, we want to see a compulsory impact assessment of out-of-town developments undertaken in the consideration of planning applications from large supermarkets and out-of-town developments. The planning process is quasi-judicial and needs to be based on evidence. Councillors cannot turn down out-of-town developments simply because they are unpopular or because a few shops have objected. They need strong evidence of detrimental impact. Those kinds of assessments could provide evidence either for or against, and reduce the incline that there is on the playing field as it is.

Yn y cynnig heddiw, rydym yn galw am nodiadau canllaw cynhwysfawr—efallai yn seiliedig ar rywfaint o’r dystiolaeth a glywsom yn y pwyllgor—ar gyfer awdurdodau lleol, i’w helpu i rannu cyngor arfer gorau ar reoli canol trefi ar draws Cymru. Yn benodol, rydym eisiau gweld asesiad effaith gorfodol yn cael ei gynnal wrth ystyried ceisiadau cynllunio gan archfarchnadoedd mawr a datblygiadau ar gyrion y dref. Mae’r broses gynllunio yn un lled-farnwrol ac mae angen iddi fod yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth. Fedr cynghorwyr ddim gwrthod datblygiadau ar gyrion y dref ar y sail eu bod yn amhoblogaidd neu achos bod ambell siop wedi gwrthwynebu. Maent angen tystiolaeth gref y bydd effaith andwyol. Fe all y mathau hynny o asesiadau roi tystiolaeth o blaid neu yn erbyn, a lleihau’r anghydraddoldeb sydd eisoes ar waith.

The Welsh Government’s approach to date has been largely hands off. It has established parameters in planning guidance, thereby hoping that that will ensure that town centres are viable. However, I believe that they need more help. That is why we are calling for the planning review to acknowledge the effect of out-of-town centres on our high streets. The aim is not to ask the Welsh Government to take an authoritative lead role in promoting the viability of town centres, rather for it to ensure that best practice is collected and understood and then shared with every local authority in Wales.

Ar y cyfan, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi sefyll yn ôl hyd yma. Mae wedi sefydlu paramedrau mewn canllawiau cynllunio, ac yn gobeithio y bydd hynny’n sicrhau bod canol trefi yn hyfyw. Fodd bynnag, rwy’n credu bod angen mwy o help arnynt. Dyna pam ein bod yn galw am adolygiad cynllunio i gydnabod effeithiau canolfannau ar gyrion y dref ar ein strydoedd mawr. Nid y bwriad yw gofyn i Lywodraeth Cymru ymgymryd â rôl flaengar awdurdodol yn hybu hyfywedd canol trefi, ond yn hytrach iddi sicrhau fod arfer gorau yn cael ei gasglu, ei ddeall ac wedyn ei rannu gyda phob awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru.

There are opportunities for small businesses on the high street to grow, thrive and prosper. However, they need to be supported financially and helped to access new markets in the difficult times that we face at the moment. Technical advice note 4 identifies three types of town-centre businesses: retail; food services; and professional services. These all need different kinds of support to ensure that our high streets remain vibrant. High streets also often have some local authority services on, or near, them that help to drive footfall. That is also a helpful way in which local authorities can support local communities. However, there are only so many services that can be provided by the council. Growth in the private sector stimulates other businesses, and this must be at the core of a successful town centre.

Mae cyfleoedd i fusnesau bach ar y stryd fawr i dyfu a ffynnu. Fodd bynnag, maent angen cymorth ariannol a help i gyrraedd marchnadoedd newydd yn y sefyllfa anodd sydd ohoni ar hyn o bryd. Mae nodyn cyngor technegol 4 yn nodi tri math o fusnes canol tref: manwerthu; gwasanaethau bwyd; a gwasanaethau proffesiynol. Mae’r rhain oll angen math gwahanol o gymorth i sicrhau bod ein strydoedd mawr yn parhau i fod yn hyfyw. Yn aml, mae gan strydoedd mawr hefyd rhyw fath o wasanaeth awdurdod lleol wedi’i leoli yno neu gerllaw, sy’n helpu i ddenu pobl yno. Mae hynny hefyd yn ffordd i awdurdodau lleol gefnogi cymunedau lleol. Fodd bynnag, dim ond hyn a hyn o wasanaethau y gall y cyngor eu darparu. Mae twf yn y sector preifat yn ysgogi busnesau eraill, ac mae’n rhaid i hyn fod wrth wraidd canol tref llwyddiannus.

The impact of business rates is often cited as a problem for all small businesses, in the retail sector in particular. It can represent up to a third of the costs for a small business. The issue is more complex than simply subsidising business rates below a certain rateable value, as the Conservatives have proposed in the past. The review must address the complexity of problems faced by small businesses. It must address the situation where someone who invests in their business, improves their business, or seeks to make something special out of what they have grown, is punished by our rates system. It is a disincentive for them to invest. In these times, if there are businesses that are able to invest, we cannot afford to disincentivise them. That is why we want the Government to ensure that the needs of the retail sector are accounted for in its review, and why we oppose the Government’s amendment.

Caiff effaith ardrethi busnes ei nodi’n aml fel problem i bob busnes bach, yn enwedig yn y sector manwerthu. Gall fod yn hyd at draean o gostau busnes bach. Mae’r broblem yn fwy cymhleth na dim ond rhoi cymhorthdal i ardrethi busnes sy’n is na gwerth ardrethol penodol, fel mae’r Ceidwadwyr wedi ei gynnig yn y gorffennol. Mae’n rhaid i’r adolygiad fynd i’r afael â chymhlethdod y problemau sy’n wynebu busnesau bach. Mae’n rhaid iddo ymdrin â’r sefyllfa pan fydd rhywun sydd yn buddsoddi yn eu busnes, yn gwella eu busnes, neu’n ceisio gwneud rhywbeth arbennig gyda beth maent wedi ei dyfu, yn cael eu cosbi gan ein system ardrethi. Maent yn cael eu hannog i beidio â buddsoddi. Yn yr oes sydd ohoni, os yw busnesau yn gallu buddsoddi, ni allwn fforddio peidio â’u hannog. Dyna pam ein bod eisiau i’r Llywodraeth sicrhau bod anghenion y sector manwerthu yn cael eu hystyried yn ei hadolygiad, a dyna pam ein bod yn gwrthwynebu gwelliant y Llywodraeth.

One in five of the Welsh workforce is employed by the retail sector in Wales. It is only right that we develop specific assistance for them in these difficult times. When we conduct reviews of things like business rates, which will affect them, we need to put the needs of the retail sector at the forefront of our thoughts.

Mae un o bob pump o’r gweithlu yng Nghymru yn cael eu cyflogi gan y sector manwerthu yng Nghymru. Mae’n hollol iawn ein bod yn datblygu cymorth penodol iddynt yn yr adeg anodd hon. Wrth gynnal adolygiadau o bethau fel ardrethi busnes, a fydd yn effeithio arnynt, mae angen i ni gadw anghenion y sector manwerthu ar flaen ein meddyliau.

Gwelliant 1 Jane Hutt

Amendment 1 Jane Hutt

Dileu is-bwynt 2 a).

Delete sub point 2 a).

The Minister for Housing, Regeneration and Heritage (Huw Lewis): I move amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt.

Y Gweinidog Tai, Adfywio a Threftadaeth (Huw Lewis): Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Jane Hutt.

Gwelliant 2 William Graham

Amendment 2 William Graham

Ychwanegu fel is-bwynt newydd ar ddiwedd pwynt 2:

Add as new sub point at end of point 2:

cyhoeddi strategaeth manwerthu.

publishing a retail strategy.

Nick Ramsay: I move amendment 2 in the name of William Graham.

Nick Ramsay: Cynigiaf welliant 2 yn enw William Graham.

I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate today. Quite simply, amendment 2 calls on the Welsh Government to publish a detailed and—because I like the word ‘visionary’, which I have already used today, so I will use it again—visionary retail strategy. It speaks for itself. We believe that there is a lack of strategy at the moment in terms of the regeneration of town centres and support for the high street.

Rwy’n ddiolchgar am y cyfle i gyfrannu i’r ddadl hon heddiw. Yn syml iawn, mae gwelliant 2 yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i gyhoeddi strategaeth fanwl a—oherwydd fy mod yn hoff o’r gair ‘gweledigaethol’, yr wyf wedi ei ddefnyddio yn barod heddiw, felly fe’i defnyddiaf eto—strategaeth fanwerthu weledigaethol. Mae’n siarad dros ei hun. Credwn fod diffyg strategaeth, ar hyn o bryd, o ran adfywio canol trefi a rhoi cymorth i’r stryd fawr.

I have no problems with supporting the Liberal Democrat motion and I agree with many of the points made by Eluned Parrott. It is self-evident that, unless you want a revolution, retail is important to the economy and there are massive benefits to towns of developing vibrant high streets. As Eluned mentioned, the Lib Dems have been paying close attention to the work of the Enterprise and Business Committee—that is, the Lib Dems in general; I know that Eluned Parrott is a member of the committee—on its inquiry into how town centres can be better regenerated. We are near the end of that inquiry, so I do not want to say too much and pre-empt its findings. Needless to say, all Members have found the evidence that we have taken particularly interesting. I hope that we will come to some good recommendations that we can put before the Minister.

Nid oes gennyf broblem o ran cefnogi cynnig y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a chytunaf gyda llawer o’r pwyntiau a wnaeth Eluned Parrott. Mae’n hollol amlwg, oni bai eich bod eisiau chwyldro, fod manwerthu yn bwysig i’r economi a bod datblygu strydoedd mawr hyfyw yn fantais enfawr i drefi. Fel y soniodd Eluned, mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi bod yn talu sylw manwl i waith y Pwyllgor Menter a Busnes-hynny yw, y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn gyffredinol; gwn fod Eluned Parrott yn aelod o’r pwyllgor-ar ei ymchwiliad i sut y gellir adfywio canol trefi yn well. Rydym bron â chyrraedd diwedd yr ymchwiliad, felly nid wyf eisiau dweud gormod ac achub y blaen ar ei ganfyddiadau. Prin fod angen dweud bod pob Aelod wedi canfod y dystiolaeth a gawsom yn arbennig o ddiddorol. Gobeithio y gwnawn ambell i argymhelliad da y gallwn roi gerbron y Gweinidog. 

The Government’s amendment, amendment 1, is ‘Delete sub point 2 a)’, that is, to delete:

Gwelliant y Llywodraeth, gwelliant 1, yw ‘Dileu is-bwynt 2 a)’. Hynny yw, dileu:

‘Addressing the specific needs of retailers in its review of business rates and relief schemes’.

‘Rhoi sylw i anghenion penodol manwerthwyr yn ei hadolygiad o ardrethi busnes a chynlluniau rhyddhad’.

My group will reject this amendment, which is a peculiar one. I can only imagine that because there is an ongoing review of business rates, the Government wants that to remain as independent as possible and does not want to give any steer from outside as to what the findings might be. That said, I have no problem with the basic premise that business rates should be looked at, and I am pleased that the Government is currently looking at them. As was said previously, the Welsh Conservatives have said that we would like to take small businesses with a rateable value of below £12,000 out of business rates altogether. I am pleased that other parties in the Chamber are also making noises about the importance of supporting businesses in this way.

Bydd fy ngrŵp yn gwrthwynebu’r gwelliant hwn, sy’n un rhyfedd. Oherwydd bod adolygiad parhaus o ardrethi busnes,  ni allaf ond dychmygu bod y Llywodraeth am i hynny aros mor annibynnol â phosibl ac nid yw eisiau rhoi unrhyw syniad o’r tu allan o ran beth yw ei ganfyddiadau. Wedi dweud hynny, nid oes gennyf broblem gyda’r syniad sylfaenol y dylid edrych ar ardrethi busnes, ac rwy’n falch fod y Llywodraeth yn edrych arnynt ar hyn o bryd. Fel y dywedwyd eisoes, mae’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig wedi dweud yr hoffem dynnu ardrethi busnes oddi ar fusnesau bach gyda gwerth ardrethol llai na £12,000 yn gyfan gwbl. Rwy’n falch bod pleidiau eraill yn y Siambr hefyd yn sôn am bwysigrwydd cefnogi busnesau yn y modd hwn.  

As I said, the Enterprise and Business Committee inquiry into town-centre regeneration is nearing completion, so I do not want to say any more in advance of the publication of the inquiry report.

Fel y dywedais, mae ymchwiliad y Pwyllgor Menter a Busnes i adfywio canol trefi bron â dod i ben, felly nid wyf eisiau dweud mwy cyn cyhoeddi adroddiad yr ymchwiliad.

William Powell: In my remarks, I would like to concentrate particularly on the challenges facing town centres across rural Wales. Rural town centres are, by their very nature, more remote from other towns than is the case in urban areas. The closures of post offices, banks and small independent shops have a much bigger impact on the community that they serve and on surrounding communities, because of the difficulty that local people experience in accessing alternative facilities.

William Powell: Yn fy sylwadau, hoffwn ganolbwyntio yn benodol ar yr heriau sy’n wynebu canol trefi ar draws Cymru wledig. O ran eu natur, mae canol trefi gwledig yn bellach o drefi eraill nag sy’n wir mewn canolfannau dinesig. Mae cau swyddfeydd post, banciau a siopau annibynnol bach yn cael llawer mwy o effaith ar y gymuned y maent yn eu gwasanaethau ac ar gymunedau cyfagos, oherwydd yr anhawster i bobl leol o ran cyrraedd cyfleusterau amgen.

In recent times, I have received a spate of letters from banks informing me that they intend to close branches in parts of rural Wales, particularly in my region of Mid and West Wales, and outlining the ways in which their clients will have to do their banking in future. Communities such as Tumble in Carmarthenshire and Presteigne in Radnorshire could lose their HSBC branches early in the new year at short notice. This follows the hammer blow suffered by the historic market town of Llandysul, which lost two of its four banks in less than 12 months, and, indeed, Llanrhaeadr-ym-Mochnant in Montgomeryshire, where HSBC closed its doors for the last time last September, and with it, the only bank in the village. When towns lose their banks, they not only lose access to direct banking services, they also lose access—or at the least there are threats of this—to 24/7 cashpoint facilities. That loss can impact on components of the wider economy, be they shops, cafes or, as we heard just yesterday, the hard-pressed Welsh local pub.

Yn ddiweddar, rwyf wedi derbyn llu o lythyrau gan fanciau yn dweud wrthyf am eu bwriad i gau canghennau mewn rhannau o Gymru wledig, yn enwedig yn fy rhanbarth Canolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru, ac yn amlinellu ym mha fodd y bydd yn rhaid i’w cleientiaid fancio yn y dyfodol. Gallai cymunedau fel y Tymbl yn Sir Gaerfyrddin a Llanandras yn Sir Faesyfed golli eu canghennau HSBC yn gynnar yn y flwyddyn newydd ar fyr rybudd. Mae hyn yn dilyn yr ergyd drom a ddioddefodd tref farchnad hanesyddol Llandysul, a gollodd ddau o bedwar banc mewn llai na 12 mis, ac yn wir, Llanrhaeadr-ym-Mochnant yn Sir Drefaldwyn, lle caeodd HSBC ei ddrysau am y tro olaf mis Medi diwethaf, a’r banc olaf yn y pentref yn ei sgil. Pan fo trefi yn colli eu banciau, maen nhw nid yn unig yn colli mynediad i wasanaethau bancio uniongyrchol, ond maent hefyd yn colli mynediad-neu o leiaf mae bygythiadau i hyn-i gyfleusterau tynnu arian parod 24/7. Gall y golled honno effeithio ar agweddau ar yr economi ehangach, boed yn siopau, caffis neu, fel y clywsom ddoe, y dafarn leol Gymreig sydd o dan bwysau.

All these developments serve to undermine the economic vitality of our town centres, but they also undermine their social importance. As high streets decline, there is less hustle and bustle, less of a sense of community spirit and, indeed, the function of the town centre as a community hub is threatened. The problem is all the more acute for older people and those with disabilities who do not have the means to travel elsewhere, especially with scarce and, in some cases, diminishing public transport links.

Effaith y datblygiadau hyn oll yw tanseilio hyfywedd economaidd canol ein trefi, ond maent hefyd yn tanseilio eu pwysigrwydd cymdeithasol. Wrth i strydoedd mawr ddirywio, mae llai o fwrlwm, llai o ymdeimlad o ysbryd cymunedol ac, yn wir, mae swyddogaeth y dref fel canolfan gymunedol o dan fygythiad. Mae’r broblem yn waeth o lawer i bobl hŷn a’r rhai sydd ag anableddau sydd heb fodd i deithio i rywle arall, yn enwedig gyda chysylltiadau trafnidiaeth cyhoeddus prin, ac yn prysur brinhau mewn rhai achosion.

Rural economies also have a different business make-up to their urban cousins. Agricultural businesses, food and drink producers, and those who have diversified into tourism are disproportionately important in rural areas. Many of these will find that a thriving local high street with cafes, pubs, shops, and so on, will provide them with a ready source of local trade. The advantages in environmental terms of keeping spend local are quite obvious. The development of large chain supermarkets in rural areas is, as has already been said, controversial with local residents, and it is absolutely clear that we need to have a more robust system of retail impact assessments in place. Look at the impact that such developments have had in ancient town centres such as Aberystwyth in recent times.

Mae gan economïau gwledig fathau gwahanol o fusnes i’w cefndryd trefol. Mae busnesau amaethyddol, cynhyrchwyr bwyd a diod, a’r rhai sydd wedi arallgyfeirio i dwristiaeth yn anghymesur o bwysig mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Bydd llawer o’r rhain yn canfod bod stryd fawr ffyniannus gyda chaffis, tafarndai, siopau, ac yn y blaen, yn ffynhonnell barod o fasnach leol. Mae’r manteision mewn telerau amgylcheddol o gadw gwariant yn lleol yn amlwg. Fel y dywedwyd eisoes, mae datblygu archfarchnadoedd cadwyn mawr yn daten boeth i drigolion lleol, ac mae’n hollol amlwg bod angen i ni feddu ar system asesiadau effaith manwerthu fwy cadarn. Edrychwch ar yr effaith a gafodd datblygiadau o’r fath ar ganol trefi hynafol fel Aberystwyth yn ddiweddar. 

I have a specific example of the way in which the current business rate regime hinders small businesses and deters, in some cases, economic development. Narberth, in my region, has developed a strong programme of town-centre renewal, and is a good example of a thriving high street in a rural area that is resplendent with shops. As members of the Enterprise and Business Committee will have seen during their recent site visit, however, even town centres such as Narberth are feeling the pressure. Similar destinations such as Hay on Wye, which is close to my own home, have begun to suffer the same problems acutely. The 2008 revaluation saw the rateable value of some premises increase to an enormous extent. By 2010, the average increase in business rates in Narberth was 158 per cent. In fact, one premises had to be divided into four just to survive.

Mae gen i enghraifft benodol o’r modd y mae’r drefn ardrethi busnes bresennol yn llesteirio busnesau bach ac yn atal datblygu economaidd mewn rhai achosion. Mae Arberth, yn fy rhanbarth i, wedi datblygu rhaglen adfywio canol tref gref, ac mae’n enghraifft dda o stryd fawr sy’n ffynnu mewn ardal wledig sy’n llawn o siopau. Fel y bydd aelodau o’r Pwyllgor Menter a Busnes wedi gweld yn ystod eu hymweliad safle diweddar, fodd bynnag, mae hyd yn oed canol trefi fel Arberth o dan bwysau. Mae cyrchfannau tebyg fel Gelli Gandryll, sy’n agos i fy nghartref, wedi dechrau dioddef yr un problemau yn ddwys. Gwelodd yr ailbrisio yn 2008 werth ardrethol rhai eiddo yn cynyddu yn anferthol.  Erbyn 2010, y cynnydd ar gyfartaledd mewn ardrethi busnes yn Arberth oedd 158 y cant. Yn wir, roedd rhaid rhannu un eiddo yn bedwar dim ond er mwyn goroesi.

This situation deters investment in both the premises and in other important measures, such as security. The Federation of Small Businesses in Wales has been vocal in its criticism of the system, and in calling for reform. The Government’s review must address this issue, as well as look at how local facilities such as post offices, pubs and independent stores can benefit from some much-needed relief.

Mae’r sefyllfa yn atal buddsoddiad yn yr eiddo ac mewn mesurau pwysig eraill, megis diogelwch. Mae’r Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach yng Nghymru wedi bod yn hyglyw ei beirniadaeth o’r system, ac o ran galw am ddiwygio. Rhaid i adolygiad y Llywodraeth ymdrin â’r mater hwnnw, yn ogystal ag edrych ar sut y gall cyfleusterau lleol fel swyddfeydd post, tafarndai a siopau annibynnol elwa o gael cymorth mawr ei angen.

Mike Hedges: Retail faces tough economic times. I think that everybody is aware of that. That is the effect of the policies of the Conservative-Liberal Democrat Government in London—[Interruption.] It is a fact.

Mike Hedges: Mae manwerthu yn wynebu adeg economaidd anodd. Credaf fod pawb yn gwybod hynny. Dyna effaith polisïau'r Llywodraeth Geidwadol-Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn Llundain—[Torri ar draws.] Mae’n ffaith.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. I have called a speaker, and he is speaking. I do not want people shouting from a sedentary position.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Rwyf wedi galw siaradwr, ac mae’n siarad. Nid wyf am i bobl weiddi o’u heistedd.  

Mike Hedges: Retail is having problems and people are lacking confidence, and that is a fact. Retailers in shopping centres are also suffering from the competition with online retailers. Online retail is growing substantially. I am not one to knock it, because hundreds of my constituents work at Amazon, just outside Swansea.

Mike Hedges: Mae manwerthu yn wynebu problemau ac mae diffyg hyder gan bobl, ac mae hynny’n ffaith. Mae manwerthwyr mewn canolfannau siopa hefyd yn dioddef o’r gystadleuaeth gyda manwerthwyr ar-lein. Mae manwerthu ar-lein yn tyfu’n sylweddol. Nid wyf am feirniadu hynny, gan fod cannoedd o’m hetholwyr yn gweithio yn Amazon, ar gyrion Abertawe.

I want to talk about two places. One is a small shopping centre in Morriston, near Swansea. It is near the enterprise zone. In Swansea, the phrase ‘enterprise zone’ is just another way of saying ‘out-of-town shopping centre’. That is what it is. We have a high street that is not just shops, but also pubs and clubs and a post office. There are people living there, most importantly. Like many small shopping centres, it suffered the loss of Woolworths, but was fortunate to get Wilkinson and Iceland in, so it has some key shops there. Like a lot of local shopping centres, it also has butchers, bakers, and so on. What proposals did the Liberal Democrats in Swansea come up with to help this out-of-town shopping centre? They came up with car parking charges. That was their proposal when they were running the City and County of Swansea Council, which they will continue to do until May of this year. They came up with a proposal to charge for car parking. They have only withdrawn that proposal following a petition with several thousand signatories and a campaign that has gone on for several months, led by local councillors and retailers who are seriously concerned that charges for car parking would kill Morriston.

Rwyf eisiau sôn am ddau le. Mae un yn ganolfan siopa fach yn Nhreforys, ger Abertawe. Mae ger y parth menter. Yn Abertawe, mae’r ymadrodd ‘parth menter’ yn ffordd arall o ddweud ‘canolfan siopa ar gyrion y dref’. Dyna beth ydyw. Mae gennym stryd fawr sy’n cynnwys siopau yn ogystal â thafarndai a chlybiau a swyddfa'r post. Mae pobl yn byw yno, yn bwysicaf oll. Fel sawl canolfan siopa fach, fe gollodd Woolworths, ond roedd yn ffodus i ddenu Wilkinson ac Iceland, felly mae ganddo rai siopau allweddol yno. Fel llawer o ganolfannau siopa lleol, mae ganddo hefyd gigydd, pobydd, ac ati. Pa gynigion oedd gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn Abertawe i helpu’r ganolfan siopa hon ar gyrion y dref? Eu cynnig nhw oedd codi tâl am barcio. Dyna beth oedd eu cynnig nhw pan roeddent yn rhedeg Cyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe, y byddant yn dal i’w wneud tan fis Mai eleni. Roedd ganddynt gynnig i godi tâl am barcio. Dim ond ar ôl deiseb gyda miloedd o lofnodion ac ymgyrch a aeth ymlaen am nifer o fisoedd y maent wedi tynnu’r cynnig hwnnw yn ôl, a gafodd ei arwain gan gynghorwyr lleol a manwerthwyr sy’n pryderu’n ddwys y byddai codi tâl am barcio yn lladd Treforys.

5.30 p.m.

The Tories in Swansea are still in favour of it. Indeed, in an article in the South Wales Evening Post last weekend, the former Conservative leader said that, yes, they want to have car parking charges there. Therefore, we need to think not about the nice words that people say here, but about what they do when they have some power.

Mae’r Toriaid yn Abertawe yn dal i fod o’i blaid. Yn wir, mewn erthygl yn y South Wales Evening Post benwythnos diwethaf, dywedodd cyn arweinydd y Ceidwadwyr eu bod eisiau codi tâl am barcio yno. Felly, mae angen i ni feddwl nid am y geiriau cynnes a ddywed pobl yn y fan hon, ond am beth maent yn wneud pan fo ganddynt rywfaint o bŵer.

Turning to Swansea city centre, my colleague Julie James and I visited Swansea city centre as part of our campaign to support city-centre retailers. We visited Swansea market—which we believe is certainly the best market in Wales and probably the best market in Britain—and the Quadrant, which is a very successful shopping centre. We also supported the park and ride scheme, which exists in Swansea thanks to this Assembly. What have the Liberal Democrats done on Swansea council? They have put in a one-way system that is almost impossible to navigate, we have managed to lose David Evans, which was part of the House of Fraser group—therefore, where large cities like Gateshead have one of its shops, we do not—and while they promised to build a bypass eight years ago, we are still awaiting it, and so we still have the bottleneck on the way into the city. I have yet to meet anyone who thinks that, after eight years of Lib Dem tinkering, Swansea city centre has improved.

I droi at ganol dinas Abertawe, ymwelodd fy nghyd-Aelod Julie James a fi ganol tref Abertawe fel rhan o’n hymgyrch i gefnogi manwerthwyr canol tref. Fe wnaethom ymweld â marchnad Abertawe—yr ydym o’r farn mai hon yw’r farchnad orau yng Nghymru a’r orau ym Mhrydain, siŵr o fod—a’r Cwadrant, sy’n ganolfan siopa lwyddiannus iawn. Yr ydym hefyd wedi cefnogi’r cynllun parcio a theithio, sy’n bodoli yn Abertawe diolch i’r Cynulliad hwn. Beth mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi ei wneud ar gyngor Abertawe? Maent wedi gosod system unffordd sydd bron yn amhosibl i fynd o’i chwmpas, yr ydym wedi llwyddo i golli David Evans, a oedd yn rhan o grŵp House of Fraser—felly, mae gan ddinasoedd mawr fel Gateshead un o’i siopau, ond nid ni—ac er iddynt addo adeiladu ffordd osgoi wyth mlynedd yn ôl, yr ydym yn dal i aros amdani, ac felly mae gennym dal dagfeydd ar y ffordd i mewn i’r ddinas. Nid wyf wedi cwrdd â neb eto sy’n meddwl bod canol tref Abertawe wedi gwella ar ôl wyth mlynedd o botsian gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. 

What has the Labour Government here done? It has expanded rate relief and has commissioned an independent review of business rates, but let us remember that rates are not the biggest cost facing businesses, given that they are normally substantially less than rent. In enterprise zones in England, when 100 per cent rate relief came in, it had the effect of pushing up rents. The provision of free bus passes has had a huge effect on the success of city centres, not only by bringing in shoppers, but by keeping bus services viable.

Beth mae’r Llywodraeth Lafur yma wedi ei wneud? Mae wedi ehangu rhyddhad ardrethi a chomisiynu adolygiad annibynnol o ardrethi busnes, ond gadewch i ni gofio nad ardrethi yw’r gost fwyaf mae busnesau yn ei wynebu, o gofio eu bod fel arfer yn sylweddol llai na rent. Mewn parthau menter yn Lloegr, pan gyflwynwyd y rhyddhad 100 y cant, ei effaith oedd cynyddu rhenti. Mae darparu pasiau bysiau am ddim wedi cael effaith anferth ar lwyddiant canol trefi, nid yn unig drwy ddenu siopwyr, ond hefyd drwy gadw gwasanaethau bws yn hyfyw.  

Labour is committed to regenerating our city centres, through planning policy, breathing new life into towns by safer and better quality design, developing family-friendly environments and mixed-use development. It is important that we support our city centres and our regional shopping centres, but the action by those people who control the councils has a greater effect than voting for things here that will have no effect.

Mae Llafur wedi ymrwymo i adfywio canol ein trefi, drwy bolisi cynllunio, rhoi bywyd newydd i drefi drwy ddylunio mwy diogel ac o ansawdd gwell, datblygu amgylcheddau sy’n gyfeillgar i deuluoedd a datblygiad defnydd cymysg. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cefnogi canol ein trefi a’n canolfannau siopa rhanbarthol, ond mae’r camau a gymerir gan y bobl hynny sy’n rheoli cynghorau yn cael mwy o effaith na phleidleisio am bethau yn y fan hon na fydd yn cael unrhyw effaith.

Aled Roberts: I will confine my remarks this afternoon to planning and to dealing with car parking issues; perhaps I can convince Mike Hedges that all is not lost as far as certain local authorities are concerned. I am sure that my friend Peter Black will deal with the particular case of Swansea.

Aled Roberts: Fe gyfyngaf fy sylwadau y prynhawn yma i gynllunio ac i ddelio â materion parcio; efallai y gallaf argyhoeddi Mike Hedges nad yw’r darlun yn ddu i gyd mewn rhai awdurdodau lleol. Yr wyf yn siŵr y gwnaiff fy nghyfaill Peter Black ddelio ag achos penodol Abertawe.

We all know of situations where large superstore developments are now not only affecting some of our larger towns, but are moving towards rural towns, such as Llanrwst and Llangollen. There are big issues and concerns regarding the effect of such developments on what are currently quite successful small market towns, and about those developing in the way that some of our larger towns have done most recently. I must say, Mike, that I do not accept that there has been a record of action in relation to planning since devolution, as far as the protection of our high streets is concerned. There has been what can only be referred to as sporadic attempts by the Assembly since devolution to deal with this particular threat. It is worth noting that the guidance from the Assembly is still interim guidance, and was last introduced in 2005. Therefore, you may have a manifesto commitment to act on the issue, but we need to see some movement on action.

Yr ydym i gyd yn gwybod am sefyllfaoedd lle mae datblygiadau archfarchnadoedd mawr nid yn unig yn effeithio ar rai o’n trefi mwy, ond hefyd yn symud tuag at drefi gwledig, fel Llanrwst a Llangollen. Mae problemau a phryderon mawr am effaith datblygiadau o’r fath ar beth sydd ar hyn o bryd yn drefi marchnad bach eithaf llwyddiannus, ac am y rheini yn datblygu mewn ffordd mae rhai o’n trefi mwy wedi ei wneud yn fwyaf diweddar. Rhaid i mi dweud, Mike, nad wyf yn derbyn bod yna hanes o weithredu wedi bod o ran cynllunio ers datganoli, o ran diogelu ein strydoedd mawr. Bu ymdrechion nad allaf ond eu galw yn rhai gwasgaredig gan y Cynulliad ers datganoli i ddelio â’r bygythiad arbennig hwn. Mae’n werth nodi mai dim ond canllaw dros dro yw’r canllaw gan y Cynulliad o hyd, a chyflwynwyd hwnnw ddiwethaf yn 2005. Felly, efallai bod gennych ymrwymiad yn eich maniffesto i weithredu ar hyn, ond mae angen i ni weld rhywfaint o symud ar y gweithredu.   

It is our position that development planning can be used to ensure that large retail developments do not harm existing town centres, which they do not always do. I am sure that most of us would accept that that is the case with regard to the development of St David’s 2 in Cardiff and Eagles Meadow shopping centre in Wrexham. Indeed, in certain instances, the shops that were worried about those particular developments now tell us that footfall has increased, which has meant that, certainly as far as they are concerned, the developments have been a success, because they attract new visitors who previously may have gone further afield to larger cities on the other side of the border. However, clearly, there is a balance that needs to be struck between the need to attract visitors and protecting the provision of services to local residents in smaller towns.

Ein safbwynt ni yw y gellid defnyddio cynllunio datblygu i sicrhau nad yw datblygiadau manwerthu mawr yn niweidio canol trefi sydd yno’n barod, gan nad ydynt yn gwneud hynny bob amser. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai’r rhan fwyaf ohonom yn derbyn bod hynny’n wir yn achos St David’s 2 yng Nghaerdydd a chanolfan siopa Eagles Meadow yn Wrecsam. Yn wir, mewn ambell achos, mae’r siopau a oedd yn poeni am y datblygiadau penodol hynny yn awr yn dweud wrthym bod nifer yr ymwelwyr wedi cynyddu, sydd wedi golygu, o’u safbwynt nhw, bod y datblygiadau wedi bod yn llwyddiant, gan eu bod yn denu ymwelwyr newydd a fyddai o’r blaen efallai wedi mynd ymhellach i ddinasoedd mwy yr ochr arall i’r ffin. Fodd bynnag, yn amlwg, mae angen taro cydbwysedd rhwng yr angen i ddenu ymwelwyr a diogelu’r ddarpariaeth o wasanaethau i breswylwyr lleol mewn trefi llai.

Developments on the outskirts of towns clearly need to be recognised within planning development as a different concept to the general developments in town centres and high streets. Our motion today asks that the Government consider making it a requirement that a robust impact assessment is carried out on out-of-town developments, which would go part of the way towards addressing this. We would also ask that the Government, when it goes through its planning review, consider all options, including potentially introducing different categories of use within the planning system for different types of retail development. Another area where the Government could assist would be to provide detailed transport advice to local authorities with regard to the provision of these developments.

Mae’n amlwg bod angen cydnabod datblygiadau ar gyrion trefi o fewn datblygu cynllunio fel cysyniad gwahanol i’r datblygiadau cyffredinol mewn canol trefi a strydoedd mawr. Mae ein cynnig heddiw yn gofyn i’r Llywodraeth ystyried ei gwneud yn ofyniad i gynnal asesiad effaith cadarn ar ddatblygiadau ar gyrion trefi, a fyddai’n mynd rywfaint o’r ffordd i ddatrys hyn. Byddem hefyd yn gofyn i’r Llywodraeth, pan mae’n mynd drwy ei hadolygiad cynllunio, i ystyried bob opsiwn, yn cynnwys y posibilrwydd o gyflwyno categorïau defnydd gwahanol yn y system cynllunio ar gyfer mathau gwahanol o ddatblygiad manwerthu. Maes arall lle gallai’r Llywodraeth helpu fyddai rhoi cyngor manwl ar drafnidiaeth i awdurdodau lleol o ran darpariaeth y datblygiadau hyn. 

Two weeks ago, we moved that there was a need for consideration of a wider regeneration strategy, which would mean that residential accommodation above retail spaces in town centres could provide major regeneration opportunities. According to Shelter Cymru, these flats above shops are not a high priority as they rarely give rise to neighbourhood nuisance, but they are often small in size. Likewise, there are problems in most instances because they often lack separate access.

Bythefnos yn ôl, gwnaethom gynnig bod angen ystyried strategaeth adfywio ehangach, a fyddai’n golygu y gallai llety preswyl uwchben lleoedd manwerthu mewn canol trefi gynnig cyfleoedd sylweddol i adfywio. Yn ôl Shelter Cymru, nid yw’r fflatiau hyn uwchben siopau yn flaenoriaeth uchel gan nad ydynt byth bron yn achosi niwsans i’r gymdogaeth, ond maent yn aml yn fach o ran maint. Yn yr un modd, mae problemau yn y rhan fwyaf o achosion gan nad oes ganddynt fynedfa ar wahân yn aml. 

Historically, local authorities have looked at car parking charges as revenue streams. It was certainly the case in Wrexham that that was the approach that we used to take. Interestingly, in July this year, after consultation, we introduced a policy whereby, within certain car parks in the town centre, car parking was free after 12 p.m. That lead to an increase in usage and was well received. Some months ago, Newport City Council—which I do not need to tell you has Liberal Democrats in its administration—introduced free parking. The town centre had been suffering a drop in trade, but it has noticed a 13 per cent increase since changing its policy. We accept that local authorities also have a role to play, but our view is that the Welsh Government needs to take more action with regard to this issue.

Yn hanesyddol, mae awdurdodau lleol wedi ystyried tâl am barcio fel ffrwd refeniw. Yr oedd hynny’n sicr yn wir yn Wrecsam gan mai dyna oedd yr agwedd a arferai fod gennym. Yn ddiddorol, ym mis Gorffennaf eleni, fe wnaethom gyflwyno polisi lle’r oedd parcio am ddim ar ôl 12 p.m. mewn rhai meysydd parcio yng nghanol y dref. Arweiniodd hynny at gynnydd yn eu defnydd a chafodd groeso brwd. Rai misoedd yn ôl, cyflwynodd Cyngor Dinas Casnewydd—nid oes raid i mi ddweud wrthych chi fod ganddo Ddemocratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn ei weinyddiaeth—barcio am ddim. Mae canol y dref wedi dioddef cwymp mewn masnach, ond mae wedi sylwi ar 13 y cant o gynnydd ers newid ei bolisi. Yr ydym yn derbyn bod gan awdurdodau lleol ran i’w chwarae, ond ein safbwynt ni yw bod angen i Lywodraeth Cymru weithredu mwy o ran y mater hwn.

Alun Ffred Jones: Mae Plaid Cymru yn hapus i gefnogi’r cynnig hwn. Serch hynny, mae’n dangos y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ar eu gwaethaf. Ar ôl cefnu ar y cyfle i roi hwb i fusnesau bach drwy ehangu’r cynllun rhyddhad ardrethi yn y gyllideb, dyma hwy, yn rhan 2a y cynnig, yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i:

Alun Ffred Jones: Plaid Cymru is happy to support this motion. However, I have to say that it shows the Liberal Democrats at their worst. Having turned their backs on the opportunity to give small businesses a boost through the rate relief scheme in the budget, here they are, in part 2a of the motion, calling on the Welsh Government to address

‘Rhoi sylw i anghenion penodol manwerthwyr yn ei hadolygiad o ardrethi busnes a chynlluniau rhyddhad’.

‘the specific needs of retailers in its review of business rates and relief schemes’.

Maent yn eiriau teg, ond yn gwbl ddiystyr yng nghyd-destun polisi a strategaeth y Llywodraeth yn ogystal â strategaeth y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol eu hunain.

They are fine words, but completely meaningless in the context of the Government’s policy and strategy and the strategy of the Liberal Democrats themselves.

Gofynnais i’r Prif Weinidog, pe bai’r adolygiad o’r cynllun rhyddhad ardrethi yn argymell ehangu’r cynllun, a fyddai ei Lywodraeth yn gweithredu’r argymhelliad. Ni chefais ateb, wrth gwrs. Felly, mae’r adolygiad yn ymddangos i mi yn wastraff arian ac amser. Nid yw cynnig y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn ddim ond gwynt.

I asked the First Minister if the review of business rate relief recommended expanding the scheme whether his Government would implement the recommendation. I did not receive a reply, of course. Therefore, the review seems to me to be a total waste of time and money. The Liberal Democrat motion is nothing but hot air.

Ar y llaw arall, mae pethau yn y cynnig sydd yn werth ystyriaeth. Mae’r sylw ynglŷn â gwerth cymdeithasol stryd fawr fywiog yn berthnasol iawn. Nid oes dwywaith bod gweld siopau eilradd a thlodaidd a siopau gwag yn annog trigolion i golli ffydd a hyder yn eu cymunedau. Yr hyn sy’n digwydd yw bod siopwyr yn mynd heibio’r trefi neu’r pentrefi hynny ac yn mynd ymlaen i ganolfannau mwy llewyrchus. Ofnaf fod pobl ifanc yn cymryd y ciw o weld canol trefi felly ac yn ymddwyn yn aml mewn ffordd wrthgymdeithasol. Mae cael canol trefi hyfyw a deniadol yn eithriadol o bwysig.

On the other hand, there are other things in the motion that are worth considering. The comment about the social value of a lively high street is very relevant. There is no doubt that seeing second-rate, dingy and empty shops encourages residents to lose faith and confidence in their communities. What happens is that shoppers pass those towns and villages and travel on to more prosperous centres. I am afraid that young people take their cue from seeing town centres in such a state and they often behave in an anti-social way. Having vibrant and attractive town centre is exceptionally important.

Mae sylw yn y cynnig ar ddatblygiad ar gyrion trefi. Yn anffodus, yn yr achos hwn, mae’r polisïau cynllunio diweddaraf wedi dod yn llawer rhy hwyr i ddylanwadu ar y sefyllfa. Mae’r drwg mawr eisoes wedi’i wneud i ganol ein trefi. Beth bynnag fo’ch barn ar archfarchnadoedd ac ati, nid oes dwywaith bod gorddatblygu wedi bod. Cofiaf ddod â chynnig gerbron y Cynulliad rai blynyddoedd yn ôl oedd yn dweud y dylem gynnal asesiad ar drawiad manwerthu cyn codi unrhyw archfarchnad newydd, ond ni chafwyd cefnogaeth gan y Blaid Lafur ar y pryd nag ychwaith gan y Torïaid.

There is a comment in the motion on out-of-town developments. Unfortunately, in this case, the most recent planning policies have been introduced much too late to influence the situation. Great harm has already been done to our town centres. Whatever your view on supermarkets may be, there is no doubt that there has been overdevelopment. I remember bringing a motion before the Assembly some years ago that said that we should undertake a retail impact assessment before building any new supermarkets, but there was no support from the Labour Party at the time or from the Tories.

Yr wyf wedi nodi sylwadau’r Gweinidog, Huw Lewis, am ganol trefi, sef na ddylid rhoi’r wyau i gyd ym masged y siopau bach. Credaf ei fod yn gywir, gan fod rhaid inni dderbyn bod y sefyllfa wedi newid. Mae arferion siopa wedi newid yn llwyr yn ystod y degawdau diwethaf. Mae angen i ganol ein trefi fod yn lleoedd deniadol a diddorol. Yn hynny o beth, mae pensaernïaeth, treftadaeth, y celfyddydau, canolfannau diwylliannol fel llyfrgelloedd—mae enghreifftiau da iawn o lyfrgelloedd sydd wedi cael eu hadnewyddu yn ein trefi—a lleoedd bwyta deniadol yn rhan o’r darlun eang a all wneud canol trefi yn lleoedd lle mae pobl yn dymuno treulio amser.

I have noted the comments of the Minister, Huw Lewis, about town centres, namely that we should not put all our eggs in the basket of small shops. I think that he is right, because we must accept that the situation has changed. Shopping habits have changed completely over the past decades. There is a need for our town centres to be attractive and interesting places. In that respect, architecture, heritage, the arts, cultural centres such as libraries—there are excellent examples of refurbished libraries in our towns—and attractive restaurants are part of the big picture that can make town centres places where people want to spend time.

I fynd yn ôl at y mater o ganolfannau cymdeithasol, y tuedd erbyn hyn yw bod mwy a mwy o’n bywydau yn cael eu byw mewn ffordd preifat iawn yn ein cartrefi ac mae hyd yn oed y gweithredoedd hynny oedd yn arfer bod yn rhai cymdeithasol, fel mynd i siopa, ddim yn digwydd yn yr un ffordd ac nid yw’r teimlad hynny o gymuned felly yn bodoli yn yr un ffordd. Felly, mae canol trefi a phentrefi yn eithriadol o bwysig, nid yn unig i drigolion o ran eu delwedd o’u hunain a’u cymunedau, ond hefyd i ymwelwyr. Ni allwn fforddio cael canol trefi marw, di-lewyrch, nid yn unig o safbwynt y gymuned ei hun ond o safbwynt y diwydiant twristiaeth.

To return to the matter of social centres, the tendency now is for more and more of our lives to be lived in a very private way in our homes, and even those activities that used to be social, such as going shopping, do not happen in the same way and therefore that feeling of a community does not exist in the same way. Therefore, town and village centres are exceptionally important, not only for residents in terms of their image of themselves and their communities, but also for visitors. We cannot afford to have dead, unprosperous town centres, not only from the point of view of the community itself but also from the point of view of the tourism industry.

Mohammad Asghar: Lively, successful high streets are important to Welsh towns and cities. They provide significant social value and are often areas that local residents take immense pride in. Retail businesses are vital contributors to the Welsh economy and our independent retailers contribute significantly to the unique character of many Welsh locations. However, sadly, across my region, I continue to speak to high-street traders who are struggling and require support.

Mohammad Asghar: Mae strydoedd mawr bywiog a llwyddiannus yn bwysig i drefi a dinasoedd Cymru. Maent yn darparu gwerth cymdeithasol sylweddol ac maent yn aml yn ardaloedd y mae gan drigolion lleol falchder mawr ynddynt. Mae busnesau manwerthu yn gyfranwyr allweddol i economi Cymru ac mae manwerthwyr annibynnol yn cyfrannu’n sylweddol i gymeriad unigryw llawer o leoliadau yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, yn anffodus, ar draws fy rhanbarth i, yr wyf yn dal i siarad â masnachwyr stryd fawr sydd mewn trafferth ac angen cymorth.

For example, the vacancy rate in Newport is estimated to be 26 per cent, which is well above the Welsh standard. The Conservative-led council has done much work to improve the situation, particularly alongside Newport Unlimited, in terms of long-term work to regenerate the city. A council scheme to provide two hours of free parking is proving to be very popular and is driving business towards the city centre. While I warmly welcome the news that nine new stores are to open in the Kingsway centre in John Frost Square in Newport, there is still much that the Welsh Government could and should do to help to improve the situation.

Fodd bynnag, amcangyfrifir bod y cyfraddau gwacter yng Nghasnewydd yn 26 y cant, ymhell uwchlaw y safon yng Nghymru. Mae’r cyngor dan arweiniad y Ceidwadwyr wedi gwneud llawer i wella’r sefyllfa, yn enwedig ochr yn ochr â Newport Unlimited, o ran gwaith hirdymor i adfywio’r ddinas. Mae cynllun gan y cyngor i ddarparu dwy awr o barcio am ddim yn boblogaidd iawn ac yn denu busnes tuag at ganol y ddinas. Er fy mod yn croesawu’n frwd y newyddion y bydd naw siop newydd yn agor yng nghanolfan Kingsway yn Sgwâr John Frost yng Nghasnewydd, mae llawer o hyd y gallai ac y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru wneud i helpu i wella’r sefyllfa.

During the election, the Welsh Conservatives committed to introduce a shopkeepers strategy in Wales, which could offer great support for the retail sector and which is reflected in our amendment to this motion. The focus of this strategy would cover issues such as balancing the interests of larger and smaller businesses, support for high streets and rural retail, and a focus on potential planning reform. I have welcomed the Welsh Government’s decision to undertake a review of its business rates policy, and the announcement that small business rate relief is to be extended by six months is some progress. However, relief schemes must carefully consider the needs of retailers, especially smaller retailers.

Yn yr etholiad, ymrwymodd Ceidwadwyr Cymru i gyflwyno strategaeth siopwyr yng Nghymru, a allai gynnig cymorth sylweddol i’r sector manwerthu ac a gaiff ei adlewyrchu yn ein gwelliant i’r cynnig hwn. Byddai ffocws y strategaeth hwn yn cwmpasu materion fel cydbwyso buddiannau busnesau mwy a llai, cefnogaeth i fanwerthu stryd fawr a gwledig, a ffocws ar ddiwygio cynllunio posibl. Yr wyf wedi croesawu penderfyniad Llywodraeth Cymru i gynnal adolygiad o’i pholisi ardrethi busnes, ac mae’r cyhoeddiad y bydd rhyddhad ardrethi i fusnesau bach yn cael ei ymestyn o chwe mis yn rhywfaint o gynnydd. Fodd bynnag, rhaid i gynlluniau rhyddhad ystyried anghenion manwerthwyr yn ofalus, yn enwedig manwerthwyr llai. 

We have made excellent proposals for business rates on this side of the Chamber, and these should be on the Welsh Government’s radar. Sadly, we have already heard the Federation of Small Businesses express concern that Welsh Labour’s manifesto largely ignored small businesses. That does little to boost confidence in how this administration will tackle the problems facing our high streets. Local, high-street retailers make a huge contribution to our communities, often providing a personal service, top-quality produce and a diverse shopping experience.

Yr ydym wedi gwneud cynigion rhagorol ar gyfer ardrethi busnes ar yr ochr hon i’r Siambr, a dylai Llywodraeth Cymru gymryd sylw o’r rhain. Yn anffodus, clywsom y Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach yn mynegi pryderon yn barod fod maniffesto Llafur Cymru wedi anwybyddu busnesau bach i raddau helaeth. Nid yw hynny’n gwneud fawr ddim i gynyddu hyder yn y modd y bydd y weinyddiaeth hon yn ymdrin â’r problemau mae ein strydoedd mawr yn eu hwynebu. Mae manwerthwyr lleol ar y stryd fawr yn cyfrannu’n sylweddol i’n cymunedau, yn aml drwy ddarparu gwasanaeth personol, cynnyrch o’r radd flaenaf a phrofiad siopa amrywiol.

5.45 p.m.

However, large out-of-town developments continue to place a significant strain on our high streets. While these developments offer convenience, the Welsh planning system must consider the immense benefits that a vibrant high street offers society. Professor Adamson, from the Centre for Regeneration Excellence Wales, has said that, presently, a local voice is missing in the planning system and that systems must better consider the impact which out-of-town developments have on local commerce and business.

Fodd bynnag, mae datblygiadau mawr y tu allan i’r dref yn parhau i roi straen sylweddol ar ein strydoedd mawr. Er bod y datblygiadau hyn yn cynnig hwylustod, mae’n rhaid i system gynllunio Cymru ystyried y manteision enfawr mae stryd fawr fywiog yn eu cynnig i gymdeithas. Mae’r Athro Adamson, o Ganolfan Rhagoriaeth Adfywio Cymru, wedi dweud, ar hyn o bryd, fod llais lleol ar goll yn y system gynllunio a bod angen i systemau ystyried effaith datblygiadau y tu allan i’r dref ar fasnach a busnes lleol yn well.

An effective transport system also has a leading role to play in the development of our high streets, as do our transport providers. The modification of existing bus routes by Newport Transport means that buses are picking up and dropping off passengers on the city’s High Street for the first time since the 1990s, which is to be welcomed. Further developments across my region are critical, including the important issue of connectivity between Newport and the surrounding Valleys communities.

Mae gan system drafnidiaeth effeithiol hefyd rôl arweiniol i’w chwarae yn y gwaith o ddatblygu ein strydoedd mawr, fel sydd gan ein darparwyr trafnidiaeth. Mae addasiad Newport Transport o lwybrau bws presennol yn golygu bod bysiau yn codi a gollwng teithwyr ar Stryd Fawr y ddinas am y tro cyntaf ers y 1990au, sydd i’w groesawu. Mae datblygiadau pellach ar draws fy rhanbarth yn hollbwysig, gan gynnwys y mater pwysig o gysylltedd rhwng Casnewydd a chymunedau’r Cymoedd cyfagos.

To conclude my remarks, I thank the Welsh Liberal Democrats for bringing forward this important and timely debate, and I urge the Welsh Government to do all it can to lease new life into our high streets and town and city centres. Better rate relief, spreading best practice, curbing the growth of out-of-town developments, improving transport links and implementing a robust retail strategy are steps that this administration could take to help make this happen. To give one example, the small town of Risca has three supermarkets within a half-mile radius. That sort of planning must be stopped, Minister, and if you want to see local traders boosting their economies, you must help them out.

I gloi fy sylwadau, diolch i Ddemocratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru am gyflwyno’r ddadl bwysig ac amserol hon, ac yr wyf yn annog Llywodraeth Cymru i wneud popeth yn ei gallu i adfywhau ein strydoedd mawr a chanol trefi a chanol dinasoedd. Mae rhyddhad ardrethi gwell, lledaenu arfer gorau, ffrwyno twf datblygiadau y tu allan i’r dref, gwella cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth a gweithredu strategaeth fanwerthu gadarn yn gamau y gallai’r weinyddiaeth hon eu cymryd i helpu i wneud i hyn ddigwydd. Rhoddaf un enghraifft: mae gan dref fechan Rhisga dair archfarchnad o fewn radiws hanner milltir. Mae’n rhaid dod â’r fath hwnnw o gynllunio i ben, Weinidog, ac os ydych am weld masnachwyr lleol yn rhoi hwb i’w heconomïau, mae’n rhaid i chi eu helpu nhw.

Julie James: It is a real shame that we are debating this today in the teeth of our committee’s report into the regeneration of town centres in Wales, because that constrains a rather large number of us who do not want to pre-empt the report.

Julie James: Mae’n drueni mawr ein bod yn trafod hyn heddiw yn nannedd adroddiad ein pwyllgor am adfywio canol trefi yng Nghymru, oherwydd mae hynny yn cyfyngu ar nifer eithaf mawr ohonom nad ydym am achub y blaen ar yr adroddiad.

However, I wanted to put a couple of things on record. I share Mike Hedges’ concern about my own city centre and some of the decisions that have been made, and it is very important for this Chamber to realise that vibrant town centres are about a lot more than retail, although it has been a real pleasure for me to work with the independent traders in Swansea, the market traders association, and the Swansea business improvement district. I want to use my short time to put on record my appreciation of the work that the Swansea BID has done, and to say that I think that the Christmas lights are very pretty, so you should all visit Swansea to look at them and do some shopping among the independent traders and in the very splendid market.

Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn awyddus i roi un neu ddau o bethau ar gofnod. Rhannaf bryder Mike Hedges am ganol fy ninas fy hun a rhai o’r penderfyniadau sydd wedi’u gwneud, ac mae’n bwysig iawn bod y Siambr hon yn sylweddoli bod canol trefi bywiog yn ymwneud â llawer mwy na manwerthu, er ei bod wedi bod yn bleser go iawn i mi weithio gyda’r masnachwyr annibynnol yn Abertawe, cymdeithas masnachwyr y farchnad ac ardal gwella busnes Abertawe. Yr wyf eisiau defnyddio fy amser prin i gofnodi fy ngwerthfawrogiad o’r gwaith y mae ardal gwella busnes Abertawe wedi ei wneud, a dweud fy mod yn meddwl bod y goleuadau Nadolig yn bert iawn, felly dylech i gyd ymweld ag Abertawe i edrych arnynt a gwneud rhywfaint o siopa wrth y masnachwyr annibynnol ac yn y farchnad ysblennydd iawn.

I also want to give a bit of a plug to sustainable transport systems. I am disappointed that it is not as integrated as I would like in Swansea. There are better examples elsewhere, but I do not want to pre-empt our report in any way, so I will not go any further on that.

Yr wyf hefyd yn awyddus i roi tipyn o hysbys i systemau trafnidiaeth cynaliadwy. Yr wyf yn siomedig nad yw trafnidiaeth mor integredig ag y hoffwn ei fod yn Abertawe. Ceir enghreifftiau gwell mewn mannau eraill, ond gan nad wyf am achub y blaen ar ein hadroddiad mewn unrhyw ffordd, taw piau hi.

I also want to put on record my gratitude to the Minister for the amount of money that he has spent, particularly in my own city centre, for visiting and walking around my city and for the good job that he did of understanding local issues. His support has been tremendous, so thank you for that. I am grateful that we have announced that we are going to fund the demolition of one of the worst shopping centres in Europe, which is the St David’s Shopping Centre in Swansea. It will expose two of the prettiest churches in Wales and give them back a line of sight and also make one of the better and more successful shopping centres in the Quadrant more accessible to everybody.

Yr wyf hefyd am gofnodi fy niolch i’r Gweinidog am faint o arian y mae wedi ei wario, yn enwedig yng nghanol fy ninas fy hun, am ymweld a cherdded o gwmpas fy ninas ac am y gwaith da a wnaeth o ddeall materion lleol. Mae ei gefnogaeth wedi bod yn wych, felly diolch i chi am hynny. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ein bod wedi cyhoeddi ein bod yn mynd i ariannu dymchwel un o ganolfannau siopa gwaethaf Ewrop, sef Canolfan Siopa Dewi Sant yn Abertawe. Bydd yn amlygu dwy o’r eglwysi prydferthaf yng Nghymru ac yn rhoi llinell golwg yn ôl iddynt a hefyd yn gwneud un o’r canolfannau siopa gwell a mwy llwyddiannus sef y Cwadrant yn fwy hygyrch i bawb.

I will end by saying, please come to shop at Swansea. It is great.

Gorffennaf drwy ddweud: da chi, dewch i siopa yn Abertawe. Mae’n wych.

Rebecca Evans: I am pleased to take this opportunity to recognise the importance of the retail sector to the Welsh economy. It currently employs around 140,000 people across 9,000 businesses, but despite the importance of retail to the identity of many communities in Wales, as well as the national economy, research has found that many retailers in Wales are struggling to recruit employees with the necessary skills. Recent research has found that retailers have particular trouble attracting talented young people, who do not always consider retail as a career choice. When they do attract them, they have problems retaining them because the pathways of career progression are not necessarily clear. For this reason, I warmly welcome the launch of the National Skills Academy for Retail in Wales, which took place a couple of weeks ago, at which the Deputy Minister for Skills acknowledged how important retail is to the Welsh economy. He noted that its growth and sustainability are dependent on building a well-skilled workforce and attracting ambitious people to drive the sector forward. The initiative, backed by funding from the Welsh Government’s sector priorities fund pilot, with additional support from the European social fund, will provide a new network of skills shops, which have been established by the sector skills council for retail. This initiative aims to address some of the challenges in the sector by championing and promoting retail as an exciting, challenging and varied profession. It will offer retailers of all types and sizes, and their employees, access to training opportunities including apprenticeships, management training and bespoke programmes, as well as advice for those who want to get into the sector. In challenging times, investing in staff is an important way for retailers to get the most out of their staff and to maximise the profitability of their businesses.

Rebecca Evans: Yr wyf yn falch o gymryd y cyfle hwn i gydnabod pwysigrwydd y sector manwerthu i economi Cymru. Ar hyn o bryd mae’n cyflogi tua 140,000 o bobl ar draws 9,000 o fusnesau, ond er gwaethaf pwysigrwydd manwerthu i hunaniaeth llawer o gymunedau yng Nghymru, yn ogystal â’r economi genedlaethol, mae ymchwil wedi canfod bod llawer o fanwerthwyr yng Nghymru yn cael trafferth yn recriwtio gweithwyr sydd â’r sgiliau angenrheidiol. Mae ymchwil diweddar wedi canfod bod manwerthwyr yn cael trafferth benodol yn denu pobl ifanc talentog, nad ydynt bob amser yn ystyried manwerthu fel gyrfa i’w ddewis. Pan fyddant yn eu denu, mae ganddynt broblemau yn eu cadw oherwydd nad yw’r llwybrau dilyniant gyrfaol o reidrwydd yn glir. Am y rheswm hwn, yr wyf yn croesawu’n fawr lansiad yr Academi Sgiliau Genedlaethol ar gyfer Manwerthu yng Nghymru, ychydig o wythnosau yn ôl, lle cydnabu’r Dirprwy Weinidog dros Sgiliau pa mor bwysig yw manwerthu i economi Cymru. Nododd bod ei dwf a chynaliadwyedd yn dibynnu ar adeiladu gweithlu medrus a denu pobl uchelgeisiol i yrru’r sector yn ei flaen. Mae’r fenter, a gefnogir gan arian o beilot cronfa blaenoriaethau sector Llywodraeth Cymru, gyda chymorth ychwanegol gan gronfa gymdeithasol Ewrop, yn darparu rhwydwaith newydd o siopau sgiliau, sydd wedi eu sefydlu gan y cyngor sgiliau sector ar gyfer manwerthu. Mae’r fenter hon yn ceisio mynd i’r afael â rhai o’r heriau yn y sector drwy hyrwyddo manwerthu fel proffesiwn cyffrous, heriol ac amrywiol. Bydd yn cynnig mynediad i gyfleoedd hyfforddi i fanwerthwyr o bob math a maint, a’u gweithwyr, gan gynnwys prentisiaethau, hyfforddiant rheoli a rhaglenni pwrpasol, yn ogystal â chyngor ar gyfer y rhai sydd am fynd i mewn i’r sector. Mewn cyfnod heriol, mae buddsoddi mewn staff yn ffordd bwysig i fanwerthwyr i gael y gorau allan o’u staff a gwneud eu busnesau mor broffidiol â phosibl.

When people think of retail, many will immediately think of high-street shops, clothes shops, music shops and so on. However, retail also includes our post offices, as Mike Hedges and William Powell have already acknowledged. The post office diversification fund has been a lifeline for many post offices, allowing them to expand the services that they provide and better meet the needs of their communities. I understand that the fund is currently closed to new applications, pending the findings of an evaluation that took place over the summer. I think that the Assembly would welcome a statement in the new year from the Government on the findings of the evaluation and on the way forward for the scheme. I would also welcome assurances from the Government that it is committed to supporting the diversification and enhancement of post offices. During the last round of allocations, post offices in New Hedges, Cross Hands, Dafen, Solva, Newtown, Merlins Bridge, Llandrindod Wells and Ammanford were just a few among the 87 post offices across Wales awarded grants worth a combined total of £850,000. The funding helps us to keep post offices open and vibrant by ensuring that they are sustainable and viable businesses that are able to meet the needs of their communities; long may that continue.

Pan fydd pobl yn meddwl am fanwerthu, bydd nifer yn meddwl yn syth am siopau stryd fawr, siopau dillad, siopau cerddoriaeth ac yn y blaen. Fodd bynnag, mae manwerthu hefyd yn cynnwys ein swyddfeydd post, fel mae Mike Hedges a William Powell eisoes wedi cydnabod. Mae’r gronfa arallgyfeirio swyddfeydd post wedi bod yn achubiaeth i lawer o swyddfeydd post, gan eu galluogi i ehangu’r gwasanaethau y maent yn eu darparu a diwallu anghenion eu cymunedau yn well. Deallaf fod y gronfa ar gau i geisiadau newydd ar hyn o bryd, hyd nes y daw canfyddiadau gwerthusiad a gynhaliwyd dros yr haf. Credaf y byddai’r Cynulliad yn croesawu datganiad yn y flwyddyn newydd gan y Llywodraeth ar ganfyddiadau’r gwerthusiad ac ar y ffordd ymlaen ar gyfer y cynllun. Byddwn hefyd yn croesawu sicrwydd gan y Llywodraeth ei fod wedi ymrwymo i gefnogi arallgyfeirio a gwella swyddfeydd post. Yn ystod y rownd ddiwethaf o ddyraniadau, yr oedd swyddfeydd post yn New Hedges, Cross Hands, Dafen, Solfach, Y Drenewydd, Pont Fadlen, Llandrindod a Rhydaman yn ddim ond rhai o’r 87 o swyddfeydd post ledled Cymru a gafodd grantiau gwerth cyfanswm cyfunol o £850,000. Mae’r cyllid yn ein helpu i gadw swyddfeydd post ar agor ac yn hyfyw drwy sicrhau eu bod yn fusnesau cynaliadwy a hyfyw sy’n gallu cwrdd ag anghenion eu cymunedau; gobeithio y bydd hynny’n parhau.

The Minister for Housing, Regeneration and Heritage (Huw Lewis): It is true that town centres are under threat from many directions; the proliferation of internet shopping and competition from out-of-town destinations are just two of the factors that have compounded with the recent economic downturn. Members will be aware—and will have been reminded this afternoon—that the Enterprise and Business Committee is already undertaking an inquiry into town centre regeneration. I gave evidence to the committee last month, and I look forward to receiving its report in due course. Town centres provide communities with an important range of employment, goods and services. They are, or can be, the focus of cultural, recreational and leisure activities for residents, surrounding communities and visitors.

Y Gweinidog Tai, Adfywio a Threftadaeth (Huw Lewis): Mae’n wir fod canol trefi dan fygythiad o sawl cyfeiriad; mae amlhad siopa ar y rhyngrwyd a chystadleuaeth gan gyrchfannau y tu allan i’r dref ddim ond yn ddau o’r ffactorau sydd wedi cael eu cymhlethu gan y dirywiad economaidd diweddar. Bydd yr Aelodau’n ymwybodol—a byddant wedi cael eu hatgoffa’r prynhawn yma—fod y Pwyllgor Menter a Busnes eisoes yn cynnal ymchwiliad i adfywio canol y dref. Rhoddais dystiolaeth i’r pwyllgor fis diwethaf, ac edrychaf ymlaen at ei adroddiad maes o law. Mae canol trefi yn darparu cymunedau gydag ystod bwysig o gyflogaeth, nwyddau a gwasanaethau. Maent, neu fe allant fod, yn ganolbwyntiau gweithgareddau diwylliannol, adloniant a hamdden i drigolion, cymunedau cyfagos ac ymwelwyr.

One vital piece of that jigsaw of provision is retail, which has a key role to play in the Welsh economy. Across the UK, over 3,000,000 people—one in every 10 of all workers—are employed in the sector. In Wales, the sector employs thousands. Some the largest employers that we have are retailers. Retail has the ability to target groups that are at most risk of poor participation in the labour market. It provides many people with a starting point. There is evidence that a high percentage of young people are employed in the sector, which suggests to me that retail can act as a gateway to other jobs. However, I believe that we can do more in terms of the dialogue that we, as the Welsh Government, have with the retail sector in Wales. I want this to be a key part of our thinking in moving forward with our town centre regeneration policies.

Un darn hanfodol o jig-so’r ddarpariaeth yw manwerthu, sydd â rôl allweddol i’w chwarae yn economi Cymru. Ar draws y DU, mae dros 3,000,000 o bobl—un o bob 10 gweithiwr—yn cael eu cyflogi yn y sector. Yng Nghymru, mae’r sector yn cyflogi miloedd. Mae rhai o’r cyflogwyr mwyaf sydd gennym yn fanwerthwyr. Mae gan fanwerthu’r gallu i dargedu grwpiau sydd yn y perygl mwyaf o gyfranogiad gwael yn y farchnad lafur. Mae’n darparu man cychwyn i lawer o bobl. Mae tystiolaeth bod canran uchel o bobl ifanc yn cael eu cyflogi yn y sector, sy’n awgrymu i mi y gall manwerthu weithredu fel porth i swyddi eraill. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn credu y gallwn wneud mwy o ran y ddeialog y cawn ni, fel Llywodraeth Cymru, gyda’r sector manwerthu yng Nghymru. Yr wyf am i hyn fod yn rhan allweddol o’n meddylfryd wrth symud ymlaen â’n polisïau ar adfywio canol y dref.

Turning to the motion itself, there is much that the Government can agree with, and I will say more about that in a moment. However, I will first explain why we cannot support the call to address the specific needs of retailers in our review of business rates and relief schemes. We have already extended the enhanced small business rate relief scheme for a second 12-month period until September 2012. Over half of the business properties in Wales will benefit from business rate relief and most of these will pay no business rates during this period. In addition, the Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science has established a task and finish group to review business rates policy in Wales, with a view to reporting back by the end of February 2012. We will await the outcome of the review; I do not want to pre-empt its findings.

Gan droi at y cynnig ei hun, mae llawer y gall y Llywodraeth gytuno ag ef, a byddaf yn dweud mwy am hynny yn y man. Fodd bynnag, byddaf yn gyntaf yn esbonio pam na allwn gefnogi’r alwad i fynd i’r afael ag anghenion penodol manwerthwyr yn ein hadolygiad o ardrethi busnes a chynlluniau rhyddhad. Yr ydym eisoes wedi ymestyn y cynllun rhyddhad ardrethi i fusnesau bach uwch ar gyfer ail gyfnod o 12 mis tan fis Medi 2012. Mae dros hanner yr eiddo busnes yng Nghymru yn elwa o ryddhad ardrethi busnes ac ni fydd y rhan fwyaf o’r rhain yn talu unrhyw ardrethi busnes yn ystod y cyfnod hwn. Yn ogystal, mae’r Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth wedi sefydlu grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen i adolygu’r polisi ardrethi busnes yng Nghymru, gyda’r bwriad o adrodd yn ôl erbyn diwedd mis Chwefror 2012. Byddwn yn aros am ganlyniad yr adolygiad; nid wyf am achub y blaen ar ei ganfyddiadau.

We cannot support the amendment tabled by the Welsh Conservatives. Before agreeing to a retail strategy, or one for a specific sector, we need to consider whether existing initiatives will deliver the appropriate support. This Government is about delivery, not about producing new documents. Crucially, we need to recognise that although retail is an important piece of the jigsaw for our town centres, it is not the only piece. We need to look proactively at other aspects of our towns as centres for living, centres for learning and centres for leisure and culture. This mix will provide our towns with the vibrancy, but, more importantly, the vitality and viability that befit them for the twenty-first century. 

Ni allwn gefnogi’r gwelliant a gyflwynodd  y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig. Cyn cytuno â strategaeth fanwerthu, neu un ar gyfer sector penodol, mae angen i ni ystyried a fydd mentrau presennol yn cyflwyno’r cymorth priodol. Darparu yw busnes y Llywodraeth hon, nid cynhyrchu dogfennau newydd. Yn hanfodol, mae angen i ni gydnabod, er bod manwerthu yn ddarn pwysig o’r jig-so ar gyfer canol ein trefi, nad dyma’r unig ddarn. Mae angen i ni edrych yn rhagweithiol ar agweddau eraill ar ein trefi fel canolfannau ar gyfer byw, canolfannau ar gyfer dysgu a chanolfannau ar gyfer hamdden a diwylliant. Bydd y gymysgedd hon yn darparu ein trefi gyda bywiogrwydd, ond, yn bwysicach, y bywiogrwydd a’r hyfywedd sy’n addas ar gyfer yr unfed ganrif ar hugain.

We need to be realistic about the future of our towns. If retail is contracting in some towns, we need to be flexible about the needs and opportunities within those centres and be prepared to look at a range of viable options.  Aside from these points, we broadly support the thrust of the motion.

Mae angen i ni fod yn realistig am ddyfodol ein trefi. Os yw manwerthu yn crebachu mewn rhai trefi, mae angen i ni fod yn hyblyg ynghylch yr anghenion a chyfleoedd o fewn y canolfannau hynny a bod yn barod i edrych ar ystod o opsiynau hyfyw. Ar wahân i’r pwyntiau hyn, yr ydym yn fras yn cefnogi byrdwn y cynnig.

We have heard during the debate about town centre management, which I firmly believe has a lot to offer and is certainly an important function. We have supported town centre management posts within the Heads of the Valleys regeneration area. By supporting these activities, we have been trying to demonstrate to our local government partners that there are benefits and value to town centre management. It was remarkable how few speakers referred to the front-line duties of local government when it comes to many of the issues that we have been talking about this afternoon. I am also keen for us to explore opportunities to support town centre management in different ways. In Scotland, for instance—and uniquely in Wales in Swansea, which is showing the way—business improvement districts, which have been mentioned, have placed the responsibility for town centre management firmly in the hands of local businesses, working in partnership with local authorities.

Yr ydym wedi clywed yn ystod y ddadl am reoli canol trefi, yr wyf yn credu’n gryf sydd â llawer i’w gynnig ac yn sicr yn swyddogaeth bwysig. Yr ydym wedi cefnogi swyddi rheoli canol y dref o fewn ardal adfywio Blaenau’r Cymoedd. Drwy gefnogi’r gweithgareddau hyn, yr ydym wedi bod yn ceisio dangos i’n partneriaid llywodraeth leol bod manteision a gwerth i reoli canol y dref. Yr oedd yn rhyfeddol cyn lleied o siaradwyr a gyfeiriodd at ddyletswyddau rheng flaen llywodraeth leol pan ddaw i lawer o’r materion yr ydym wedi bod yn eu trafod y prynhawn yma. Yr wyf hefyd yn awyddus i ni archwilio cyfleoedd i gefnogi rheolaeth ganol tref mewn gwahanol ffyrdd. Yn yr Alban, er enghraifft—ac yn unigryw yng Nghymru yn Abertawe, sy’n dangos y ffordd—mae ardaloedd gwella busnes, sydd wedi cael eu crybwyll, wedi gosod cyfrifoldeb am reoli canol y dref yn gadarn yn nwylo busnesau lleol, gan weithio mewn partneriaeth ag awdurdodau lleol.

The importance of promoting and preserving the vitality and viability of high streets and town centres has been firmly engrained in national planning policy—a point that was raised by several speakers this afternoon. It is there in national planning policy in technical advice note 4, which identifies two tests: first, that the retail development is needed at all; and, secondly, a sequential test that promotes a town-centre-first location for new development. Questions must be asked of local authorities if technical advice note 4 is not at the forefront of their minds when taking these vital decisions.

Mae pwysigrwydd hyrwyddo a gwarchod bywiogrwydd a hyfywedd strydoedd mawr a chanol trefi wedi cael ei reddfu’n gadarn mewn polisi cynllunio cenedlaethol—pwynt a gododd nifer o siaradwyr y prynhawn yma. Mae yno mewn polisi cynllunio cenedlaethol yn nodyn cyngor technegol 4, sy’n nodi dau brawf: yn gyntaf, bod angen y datblygiad manwerthu o gwbl; ac, yn ail, prawf dilyniannol sy’n hyrwyddo lleoliad canol tref yn gyntaf ar gyfer datblygiadau newydd.  Mae’n rhaid gofyn cwestiynau i awdurdodau lleol os nad yw nodyn cyngor technegol 4 ar flaen eu meddyliau wrth wneud y penderfyniadau hanfodol hyn.

Town centres have always adapted, but they must adapt and develop reasons for people to shop, to live, to visit and to spend time and money in that location. We need to help create the right environment for that to happen. We also need to recognise that there are probably no two town centres in the whole of Wales that have exactly the same set of needs and that present the same opportunities. Therefore, bespoke solutions are as important as anything else, and I reiterate that the role and will of local government on the front line of these issues is critical. 

Mae canol trefi wedi addasu erioed, ond rhaid iddynt addasu a datblygu rhesymau i gael pobl yn siopa, byw, ymweld a threulio amser ac arian yn y lleoliad hwnnw. Mae angen i ni helpu creu’r amgylchedd cywir er mwyn i hynny ddigwydd. Mae angen hefyd i ni gydnabod ei fod yn debyg nad oes dau ganol tref yng Nghymru gyfan sydd â’r un set o anghenion yn union ac sy’n cynnig yr un cyfleoedd. Felly, mae atebion pwrpasol mor bwysig ag unrhyw beth arall, ac yr wyf yn ailadrodd bod rôl ac ewyllys llywodraeth leol ar rheng flaen y materion hyn yn hollbwysig. 

I welcome the opportunity to reiterate the Welsh Government’s commitment to safeguarding and regenerating our town centres and I thank Members for their contributions. 

Croesawaf y cyfle i ailadrodd ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cymru i ddiogelu ac adfywio canol ein trefi a diolchaf i’r Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau. 

Peter Black: I thank everyone who has taken part in this debate. It is important, in the last debate before Christmas, that we have a chance to talk about retail, which is crucial to the Welsh economy and to the many local economies around Wales that depend on the level of footfall that they are able to generate in town centres and in other shopping centres.

Peter Black: Diolch i bawb sydd wedi cymryd rhan yn y ddadl hon. Mae’n bwysig, yn y ddadl olaf cyn y Nadolig, ein bod yn cael cyfle i siarad am fanwerthu, sy’n hanfodol i economi Cymru ac i’r llu o economïau lleol ledled Cymru sy’n dibynnu ar y lefel o ymwelwyr maent yn gallu denu i ganol trefi a chanolfannau siopa eraill.

Since I became involved in politics back in 1984, a huge amount has changed in terms of the shopping experience. Mike Hedges has already referred to Swansea enterprise zone and the development of out-of-town shopping centres, which has diverted a lot of trade away from traditional town and city centres.

Ers i mi ddechrau ymwneud â gwleidyddiaeth yn ôl ym 1984, mae llawer iawn wedi newid o ran y profiad o siopa. Mae Mike Hedges eisoes wedi cyfeirio at ardal fenter Abertawe a datblygiad canolfannau siopa y tu allan i’r dref, sydd wedi dargyfeirio llawer o fasnach i ffwrdd o ganol trefi a dinasoedd traddodiadol.

6.00 p.m.

I do not want to make this all about Swansea—I do not intend to do that—but Swansea is a very good example of how out-of-town shopping centres have impacted on the city centre. The Morfa development, which paid for the Liberty Stadium, and the Fforestfach development have taken huge amounts of footfall from the city centre. Just for the record, Mike, you were in charge when those two shopping centres were built. Further to that is the growth of internet shopping. That continues to take business away from superstores, as well as small and independent traders. It is the independent traders able to embrace the internet experience as well as the traditional shopping experience that continue to thrive.

Nid wyf i eisiau gwneud hyn i gyd am Abertawe—nid wyf yn bwriadu gwneud hynny—ond mae Abertawe yn enghraifft dda iawn o sut mae canolfannau siopa ar gyrion trefi wedi effeithio ar ganol y ddinas. Mae datblygiad y Morfa, a dalodd am y Stadiwm Liberty, a datblygiad Fforest-fach wedi cymryd nifer enfawr o ymwelwyr o ganol y ddinas. Er mwyn i bawb gael gwybod, Mike, chi oedd mewn grym pan adeiladwyd y ddwy ganolfan siopa hynny. Ymhellach at hynny, mae twf siopa ar y rhyngrwyd. Mae hynny’n parhau i gymryd busnes oddi wrth archfarchnadoedd, yn ogystal â masnachwyr bach ac annibynnol. Y masnachwyr annibynnol sy’n gallu manteisio ar y rhyngrwyd yn ogystal â’r profiad siopa traddodiadol sy’n parhau i ffynnu.

Everyone has to adapt to survive, or they will die. That is a challenge for town and city centre management, as well as how to find ways to stimulate the retail experience on which our towns, cities and villages depend so much. Mike, in his speech, referred to effective UK policies. He tries to have both the cake and the bun, but this is not all about UK policies. It is clearly the case that the recession is having a huge impact on shops and retail, but to say that the current recession is down to the current UK Government is an oversimplification. International and historic recessionary pressures are working their way through, all of which are having an impact on shops and their capacity to survive in terms of their turnover and profit.

Mae’n rhaid i bawb addasu er mwyn goroesi, neu byddant yn marw. Mae hynny’n her i reolaeth y dref a chanol y ddinas, yn ogystal â sut i ddod o hyd i ffyrdd i ysgogi’r profiad manwerthu y mae ein trefi, dinasoedd a phentrefi yn dibynnu arno gymaint. Yn ei araith, cyfeiriodd Mike at bolisïau effeithiol yn y DU. Mae’n ceisio ei chael hi’r ddwy ffordd, ond nid yw hyn i gyd am bolisïau’r DU. Mae’n amlwg bod y dirwasgiad yn cael effaith enfawr ar siopau a manwerthu, ond mae dweud bod y dirwasgiad presennol achos Llywodraeth bresennol y DU yn gorsymleiddio pethau. Mae pwysau’r dirwasgiad hanesyddol a rhyngwladol yn gweithio eu ffordd drwyddo, a phob un ohonynt yn cael effaith ar siopau a’u gallu i oroesi o ran eu trosiant ac elw.

Having talked to shop owners in Swansea and elsewhere, some of them are paying their bills with their personal credit cards in the hope that that will see them through to a time when things will pick up. It is ironic that the busiest shopping day so far of the Christmas period was 30 November, when a huge number of public sector workers took the opportunity to go into town to do their Christmas shopping. Long may they continue to go out shopping, but maybe they should do so at times when they are not meant to be working.

Ar ôl siarad â pherchnogion siop yn Abertawe ac mewn mannau eraill, mae rhai ohonynt yn talu eu biliau gyda’u cardiau credyd personol yn y gobaith y byddai hynny’n eu cynnal nes y bydd pethau’n gwella. Mae’n eironig mai’r diwrnod siopa prysuraf hyd yn hyn yng nghyfnod y Nadolig oedd 30 Tachwedd, pan fanteisiodd nifer mawr o weithwyr y sector cyhoeddus ar y cyfle i fynd i’r dref i wneud eu siopa Nadolig. Hir y parhaed y siopa, ond efallai y dylent wneud hynny ar adegau pan nad ydynt i fod yn gweithio.

Jocelyn Davies: An awful lot of people were in Cardiff, but please do not downgrade the action that people took with a cheap and below-the-belt comment.

Jocelyn Davies: Yr oedd llawer iawn o bobl yng Nghaerdydd, ond os gwelwch yn dda, peidiwch ag israddio’r gweithredu gan bobl gyda sylwadau di-chwaeth ac amhriodol.

Peter Black: I had no intention of downgrading the action. I am grateful for the fact that, whereas Cardiff was gridlocked—as a result of closing the tunnels—Swansea city centre was thriving that day with lots of shoppers; it was beneficial to everyone.

Peter Black: Nid oedd gennyf unrhyw fwriad i israddio’r gweithredu. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y ffaith, tra’r oedd tagfeydd yng Nghaerdydd—o ganlyniad i gau’r twnelau—yr oedd canol dinas Abertawe yn ffynnu’r diwrnod hwnnw gyda llawer o siopwyr; yr oedd yn fuddiol i bawb.

Mike made a number of points about Swansea to which I will respond. The Minister referred to the business improvement district in Swansea, as did Julie James; that is a very good example of how you can work with local businesses to invest in a city or town centre and deliver improvements to the shopping experience to draw people in. That was set up in 2006 in Swansea under the Liberal-Democrat-led administration. I take on board the praise as a result of that. Mike referred to car parking charges in Morriston, which was a valid point. The car parking charges proposed for Morriston, Gorseinon and other parts of Swansea would have had an impact on the shopping centre and it is to the credit of the council that it listened to feedback and decided not to proceed with that— [Interruption.]

Gwnaeth Mike nifer o bwyntiau am Abertawe, y byddaf yn ymateb iddynt. Cyfeiriodd y Gweinidog at yr ardal gwella busnes yn Abertawe, fel y gwnaeth Julie James; mae hynny’n enghraifft dda iawn o sut y gallwch weithio gyda busnesau lleol i fuddsoddi mewn canol tref neu ddinas a darparu gwelliannau i’r profiad siopa i ddenu pobl i mewn. Sefydlwyd hynny yn 2006 yn Abertawe o dan y weinyddiaeth dan arweiniad y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Yr wyf yn derbyn y clod o ganlyniad i hynny. Cyfeiriodd Mike at godi tâl am barcio yn Nhreforys, a oedd yn bwynt dilys. Byddai’r taliadau parcio arfaethedig ar gyfer Treforys, Gorseinon a rhannau eraill o Abertawe wedi cael effaith ar y ganolfan siopa ac mae’n glod i’r cyngor y gwrandawodd ar yr adborth a phenderfynodd peidio â bwrw ymlaen â hynny—[Torri ar draws.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. There is far too much hubbub. Please listen to the final, wind-up speech.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Mae gormod o lawer o dwrw. Gwrandewch ar yr araith olaf, os gwelwch yn dda.

Peter Black: One reason why the car parking charges were proposed—this affects other town centres as well—was that a lot of the car parking spaces in the town were being taken up by long-stay parkers. People coming in to shop could not find places to park their cars. The turnover of parking spaces must be considered.

Peter Black: Un rheswm pam y cynigiwyd codi taliadau parcio—mae hyn yn effeithio ar ganolfannau trefi eraill yn ogystal—oedd bod llawer o feysydd parcio yn y dref yn cael eu defnyddio gan bobl a oedd yn parcio am gyfnodau hir. Ni allai pobl a oedd yn dod i siopa ganfod lleoedd i barcio eu ceir. Rhaid ystyried y trosiant o leoedd parcio.

Mike referred to a whole range of issues around Swansea. The changes to Swansea city centre were put in to encourage bus travel, which he supports. The blueprint was introduced by the previous Labour administration and funded by a Labour Government in the Assembly. Therefore, I again very much welcome those changes, because they have made a big impact on Swansea.

Cyfeiriodd Mike at ystod eang o faterion o amgylch Abertawe. Gwnaethpwyd y newidiadau i ganol dinas Abertawe i annog teithio ar fysiau, y mae’n ei gefnogi. Cyflwynwyd y glasbrint gan y weinyddiaeth Lafur flaenorol ac fe’i ariannwyd gan Lywodraeth Lafur yn y Cynulliad. Felly, unwaith eto, yr wyf yn croesawu’r newidiadau hynny, oherwydd maent wedi cael effaith fawr ar Abertawe.

Alun Ffred alleged that we had turned our backs on business rate reforms and the opportunity to give small businesses a boost through a business rate relief scheme. He was obviously not listening yesterday when the Minister for Finance announced that the current business rate scheme, which was to go on until September 2012, is being extended to April 2013. Therefore, there is an extension of the business rate scheme, which reflects what is happening in Westminster, where the UK Government has extended its scheme. I take on board what Plaid is saying about business rates, but you also have to take note of the fact that, when Ieuan Wyn Jones was the Deputy First Minister, he told the Chamber, with regard to business rates, that

Honnodd Alun Ffred ein bod wedi troi ein cefnau ar ddiwygiadau ardrethi busnes a’r cyfle i roi hwb i fusnesau bach drwy gynllun rhyddhad ardrethi busnes. Yn amlwg, nid oedd yn gwrando ddoe pan gyhoeddodd y Gweinidog Cyllid y bydd y cynllun ardrethi busnes presennol, a oedd i fod i fynd ymlaen tan fis Medi 2012, yn cael ei ymestyn i fis Ebrill 2013. Felly, mae estyniad ar y cynllun ardrethi busnes, sy’n adlewyrchu’r hyn sy’n digwydd yn San Steffan, lle mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi ymestyn ei gynllun. Derbyniaf yr hyn y mae Plaid yn ei ddweud am ardrethi busnes, ond mae’n rhaid ichi hefyd gymryd sylw o’r ffaith, pan oedd Ieuan Wyn Jones yn Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog, y dywedodd wrth y Siambr, o ran ardrethi busnes,

‘we are not persuaded currently that it is the best use of the limited resources that we have’.

‘ni chawsom ein hargyhoeddi ar hyn o bryd mai hyn yw’r defnydd gorau o’r adnoddau cyfyngedig sydd gennym’.

This late conversion—

Mae’r newid hwyr hwn—

Ieuan Wyn Jones rose—

Ieuan Wyn Jones a gododd—

Peter Black: I have only a minute left, Ieuan. [Assembly Members: ‘Oh.’]  Let me finish this sentence, assuming that David is feeling lenient. This late conversion to business rate changes is obviously welcome, but it does not reflect what he did when he was in Government.

Peter Black: Dim ond munud sydd gennyf ar ôl, Ieuan. [Aelodau’r Cynulliad: ‘O.’]  Gadewch imi orffen y frawddeg hon, gan dybio bod David yn teimlo’n drugarog. Mae’r newid hwyr hwn i newidiadau ardrethi busnes yn amlwg i’w groesawu, ond nid yw’n adlewyrchu’r hyn a wnaeth pan oedd yn y Llywodraeth.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: The scheme that you are talking about was introduced by the One Wales Government. It is just an extension of that scheme. However, we are now in the middle of an economic crisis. Circumstances have changed since May last year. That is why we believe that an enhanced business rate scheme is now required.

Ieuan Wyn Jones: Cyflwynwyd y cynllun yr ydych yn sôn amdano gan Lywodraeth Cymru’n Un. Dim ond estyniad o’r cynllun hwnnw ydyw. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym bellach yng nghanol argyfwng economaidd. Mae amgylchiadau wedi newid ers mis Mai y llynedd. Dyna pam yr ydym yn credu bod angen cynllun ardrethi busnes gwell yn awr.

Peter Black: We are in the middle of an economic crisis, but we were in the middle of an economic crisis this time last year too. I have to point out that the business rate scheme that we have is what we can afford to do. You have not come up with ideas on where you would find the money to pay for the scheme that you want to put forward. It is all very well having fantasy policies, Ieuan, but you have to come up with how you would pay for them. What we have here is what is affordable and deliverable.

Peter Black: Yr ydym ar ganol argyfwng economaidd, ond yr oeddem ar ganol argyfwng economaidd adeg hon y llynedd hefyd. Rhaid imi nodi mai’r  hyn  y gallwn fforddio ei wneud yw’r cynllun ardrethi busnes sydd gennym. Nid ydych wedi dod â syniadau am lle y byddech yn dod o hyd i’r arian i dalu am y cynllun yr ydych am ei gyflwyno. Mae’n dda iawn cael polisïau ffantasi, Ieuan, ond mae’n rhaid ichi feddwl am sut byddech yn talu amdanynt. Yr hyn sy’n fforddiadwy ac yn gyflawnadwy yw’r hyn sydd gennym.

I will wind up, Deputy Presiding Officer, by referring to the amendments. In amendment 1, the Government’s approach— [Interruption.] I am waiting for some silence.

Fe wnaf ddirwyn i ben, Ddirprwy Lywydd, gan gyfeirio at y gwelliannau. Yng ngwelliant 1, mae dull y Llywodraeth—[Torri ar draws.] Yr wyf yn aros am ychydig o dawelwch.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn.

Peter Black: We are not prepared to support the Government’s amendment 1, because we believe that we need to look at retail as part of the review of business rates. We are happy to support the Conservatives’ amendment 2, because we believe that a retail strategy is necessary, but we need to make it clear that this strategy must have separate actions for large-scale retail in cities and for protecting high streets. The two are quite different, and different Government actions are needed to ensure prosperity. We also need to make the point that a strategy is only useful if it is followed by action. Therefore, we support that, but actions must follow from it.

Peter Black: Nid ydym yn barod i gefnogi gwelliant 1 y Llywodraeth, oherwydd credwn fod angen inni edrych ar fanwerthu fel rhan o’r adolygiad o ardrethi busnes. Yr ydym yn hapus i gefnogi gwelliant 2 y Ceidwadwyr, oherwydd credwn fod strategaeth manwerthu yn angenrheidiol, ond mae angen inni ei gwneud yn glir bod yn rhaid i’r strategaeth hon gael camau gweithredu ar wahân ar gyfer manwerthu ar raddfa fawr mewn dinasoedd a diogelu strydoedd mawr. Mae’r ddau’n gwbl wahanol, ac mae angen camau gweithredu gwahanol gan y Llywodraeth er mwyn sicrhau ffyniant. Hefyd, mae angen inni wneud y pwynt bod strategaeth ddim ond yn ddefnyddiol os yw gweithredu yn ei dilyn. Felly, yr ydym yn cefnogi hynny, ond rhaid i gamau gweithredu ddilyn.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is that the motion be agreed without amendment. Is there any objection? I see that there is. Therefore, voting on this item will be deferred until voting time. Do three Members wish for the bell to be rung? I see that no-one does, so we will proceed immediately to the votes.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw cytuno ar y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio. A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? Gwelaf nad oes. Felly, gohirir pleidleisio ar yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio. A oes tri Aelod sy’n dymuno i’r gloch gael ei chanu? Gwelaf nad oes unrhyw un, felly awn yn syth at y pleidleisiau.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad
Burns, Angela
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Suzy
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Isherwood, Mark
Ramsay, Nick
Sandbach, Antoinette

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Black, Peter
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Watson, Joyce
Wood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig.
Motion not agreed.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Black, Peter
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Watson, Joyce
Wood, Leanne

Asghar, Mohammad
Burns, Angela
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Suzy
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Graham, William
Isherwood, Mark
Ramsay, Nick
Sandbach, Antoinette

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment agreed.

Cynnig NDM4876 fel y’i diwygiwyd:

Motion NDM4876 as amended:

Mae Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

The National Assembly for Wales:

Yn croesawu penderfyniad y Pwyllgor Amgylchedd a Chynaliadwyedd i gynnal ymchwiliad trwyadl i achos busnes Llywodraeth Cymru ynghylch y cynnig i uno Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru, Cyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru a Chomisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru yn Un Corff Amgylcheddol.

Welcomes the decision of the Environment and Sustainability Committee to hold a thorough inquiry into the Welsh Government’s business case concerning the proposed merger of the Environment Agency Wales, the Countryside Council for Wales and the Forestry Commission Wales into one Single Environmental Body.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Burns, Angela
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Keith
Davies, Suzy
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Gething, Vaughan
Graham, William
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane

Isherwood, Mark
James, Julie
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Ramsay, Nick
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Watson, Joyce
Wood, Leanne

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Watson, Joyce
Wood, Leanne

Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Burns, Angela
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Suzy
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Graham, William
Isherwood, Mark
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Ramsay, Nick
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion agreed.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Black, Peter
Davies, Jocelyn
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Roberts, Aled
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Wood, Leanne

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Asghar, Mohammad
Burns, Angela
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Keith
Davies, Suzy
Drakeford, Mark
Evans, Rebecca
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Gething, Vaughan
Graham, William
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
Isherwood, Mark
James, Julie
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Price, Gwyn R.
Ramsay, Nick
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Sandbach, Antoinette
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Watson, Joyce

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig.
Motion not agreed.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Watson, Joyce

Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Burns, Angela
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Suzy
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Graham, William
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Isherwood, Mark
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Ramsay, Nick
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment agreed.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Burns, Angela
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Suzy
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Graham, William
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Isherwood, Mark
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Ramsay, Nick
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Wood, Leanne

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Watson, Joyce

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment not agreed.

Mae Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

The National Assembly for Wales:

1. Yn nodi:

1. Notes:

a. pwysigrwydd manwerthu i economi Cymru;

a. the importance of retail to the Welsh economy;

b. gwerth cymdeithasol stryd fawr fywiog i gymunedau lleol; ac

b. the social value of vibrant high streets to local communities; and

2. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i warchod y stryd fawr yng Nghymru drwy:

2. Calls on the Welsh government to protect Welsh high streets by:

a. datblygu arweiniad ar gyfer awdurdodau lleol a fydd yn cynnwys cyngor ynghylch yr arfer gorau ar gyfer rheoli canol trefi; ac

a. developing guidance for local authorities containing best practice advice for town centre management; and

b. cydnabod effaith datblygiadau ar gyrion trefi ar y stryd fawr yn ei hadolygiad o’r system gynllunio.

b. acknowledging the effect of out-of-town developments on high streets in its review of the planning system.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Burns, Angela
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Byron
Davies, Keith
Davies, Suzy
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Gething, Vaughan
Graham, William
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
Isherwood, Mark
James, Julie
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Ramsay, Nick
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Watson, Joyce

Davies, Jocelyn
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Wood, Leanne

Vaughan Gething: I welcome the opportunity to bring forward my first short debate, on ‘Credit rates and public interest—should short-term loan rates be regulated?’ I am pleased with the support that I have received from other Members for this debate, and I look forward to contributions, if time permits, from Julie James, Keith Davies, Aled Roberts and Simon Thomas.

Vaughan Gething: Croesawaf y cyfle i gyflwyno fy nadl fer gyntaf, ar ‘Gyfraddau credyd a budd y cyhoedd—a ddylai cyfraddau benthyciadau tymor byr gael eu rheoleiddio?’ Yr wyf yn falch o’r gefnogaeth a gefais gan Aelodau eraill ar gyfer y ddadl hon, ac edrychaf ymlaen at gyfraniadau, os bydd amser yn caniatáu, gan Julie James, Keith Davies, Aled Roberts a Simon Thomas.

The proliferation of the high-interest credit industry has never been so obvious, well-advertised, easy to access or aggressive. Interest rates that were associated in the past with fringe criminality and loan sharks are now being promoted as everyday and respectable. Wonga.com is one of the biggest players in this industry, and sponsor Blackpool Football Club. We should all be aware of the potential for this form of lending to create severe debt among our poorest communities.

Nid yw ymlediad y diwydiant credyd llog uchel erioed wedi bod mor amlwg, wedi’i hysbysebu mor dda, wedi bod mor hawdd i gael gafael arno neu wedi bod mor ymosodol. Mae cyfraddau llog a oedd yn gysylltiedig yn y gorffennol â throseddgarwch ymylol a benthycwyr arian didrwydded bellach yn cael eu hyrwyddo fel rhywbeth bob dydd a pharchus. Mae Wonga.com yn un o’r chwaraewyr mwyaf yn y diwydiant hwn, ac yn noddi Clwb Pêl-droed Blackpool. Dylem i gyd fod yn ymwybodol o’r potensial sydd gan y math hwn o fenthyca i greu dyledion difrifol yn ein cymunedau tlotaf.

Independent research released today by R3, the insolvency body, shows that 3.5 million people across the UK think that they will need a payday loan in the next six months to make ends meet. It also identifies that about a third of people who took out a payday loan did so to pay off a previous loan; and nearly half of the people who took out these loans have actually seen their financial position worsen as a result.

Dengys ymchwil annibynnol a ryddhawyd heddiw gan R3, y corff ansolfedd, fod 3.5 miliwn o bobl ledled y DU yn meddwl y bydd angen benthyciad diwrnod cyflog arnynt yn y chwe mis nesaf i gael deupen llinyn ynghyd. Mae hefyd yn nodi y gwnaeth tua thraean o bobl gymryd benthyciad diwrnod cyflog er mwyn talu benthyciad blaenorol; a gwnaeth bron i hanner y bobl a gymerodd y benthyciadau hyn weld eu sefyllfa ariannol yn gwaethygu o ganlyniad, mewn gwirionedd.

This is not a debate about abolishing the high-interest lending market completely. Credit is a vital part of the economy. Indeed, one of the significant challenges that we face at this time is to encourage people to take a sensible and sustainable approach to credit. My focus in this debate is on a very specific aspect of credit provision that is not designed to be sustainable or sensible. This high-interest credit market is very different. Payday loans are the most obvious form. Small amounts of money—£100 or £200—are loaned for simple items, to tide someone over. The reality is that the spiralling costs at the heart of such loans make this a billion-pound industry. It is all legal, and it is growing. Some forms of high-interest lending, such as those offered by doorstep lenders like Provident, have been with us for generations, but we have never seen such a rapid expansion in the scale and use of this form of credit as in the past few years.

Nid dadl am ddiddymu'r farchnad fenthyca llog uchel yn llwyr yw hon. Mae credyd yn rhan hanfodol o’r economi. Yn wir, un o’r heriau sylweddol sy’n ein hwynebu ar hyn o bryd yw annog pobl i gymryd ymagwedd synhwyrol a chynaliadwy at gredyd. Yn y ddadl hon, yr wyf yn canolbwyntio ar agwedd benodol iawn o ddarpariaeth credyd nad yw wedi’i chynllunio i fod yn gynaliadwy neu’n synhwyrol. Mae’r farchnad credyd llog uchel hon yn wahanol iawn. Benthyciadau diwrnod cyflog yw’r ffurf fwyaf amlwg. Mae symiau bach o arian—£100 neu £200—yn cael eu benthyg ar gyfer eitemau syml, er mwyn helpu rhywun. Y realiti yw bod y costau cynyddol wrth wraidd benthyciadau o’r fath yn peri bod y diwydiant hwn werth biliwn o bunnoedd. Mae’n gwbl gyfreithiol, ac mae’n tyfu. Mae rhai mathau o fenthyciadau llog uchel, fel y rhai a gynigir gan y benthycwyr carreg drws fel Provident, wedi bod gyda ni am genedlaethau, ond nid ydym erioed wedi gweld ehangu o’r fath gyflymder ym maint a defnydd y math hwn o gredyd ag sydd wedi bod yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf.

6.15 p.m.

This increase has largely been driven by the drying up of mainstream credit. Since the start of the recession, mainstream lenders, such as banks, have been much less willing to lend money. In fact, at least a quarter of the customers of high-interest credit companies say that they cannot access any other form of credit. PricewaterhouseCoopers reports a staggering 79 per cent drop in secured lending in the past year alone, and research by Consumer Focus predicts a rise in payday lending alone of between 40 and 45 per cent in the near future.

Mae’r cynnydd hwn wedi’i yrru yn bennaf gan ddiflaniad credyd o’r brif ffrwd. Ers dechrau’r dirwasgiad, mae benthycwyr o’r brif ffrwd, fel banciau, wedi bod yn llawer llai bodlon i fenthyca arian. Mewn gwirionedd, mae o leiaf chwarter o gwsmeriaid y cwmnïau llog uchel yn dweud nad ydynt yn gallu cael mynediad at unrhyw gredyd ar ffurf arall. Mae PricewaterhouseCoopers yn adrodd lleihad anhygoel o 79 y cant mewn benthyca gwarantedig yn y flwyddyn ddiwethaf yn unig, ac mae ymchwil Llais Defnyddwyr Cymru yn rhagweld cynnydd mewn benthyciadau diwrnod cyflog rhwng 40 a 45 y cant yn y dyfodol agos.

Unlike many other European Union countries, the UK does not guarantee people legal access to affordable credit. Countries such as France and Germany have introduced caps on the charges that companies can levy. In France, for example, for loans below €1,524, the annual percentage rate has been capped at just 21.5 per cent. Canada and Ohio are examples of other jurisdictions that already have caps on interest rates. In fact, in 35 states in the United States and eight Canadian provinces there are caps, as there are in 14 European countries. However, the lack of regulation here in the UK means that lenders can charge any price for their lending. They can, and do, impose interest rates at percentage rates in the thousands. Wonga.com, our old friend, charges a typical APR of 2,689 per cent, and QuickQuid charges an APR of 4,000 per cent. These are nothing more than legalised loan sharks.

Yn wahanol i lawer o wledydd eraill yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, nid yw’r Deyrnas Unedig yn gwarantu mynediad at gredyd fforddiadwy i bobl. Mae gwledydd fel Ffrainc a’r Almaen wedi cyflwyno capiau ar y taliadau y gall cwmnïau eu codi. Yn Ffrainc, er enghraifft, ar gyfer benthyciadau is nag €1,524, mae cyfradd ganrannol flynyddol wedi’i gapio ar 21.5 y cant yn unig. Mae Canada ac Ohio yn enghreifftiau o awdurdodaethau eraill sydd eisoes wedi rhoi capiau ar gyfraddau llog. Yn wir, mewn 35 o daleithiau'r Unol Daleithiau ac wyth rhanbarth o Ganada mae yna gapiau, fel y ceir mewn 14 o wledydd Ewrop. Fodd bynnag, mae diffyg rheoleiddio yma yn y DU yn golygu bod benthycwyr yn codi tâl ar unrhyw bris ar gyfer eu benthyca. Maent yn gallu-a maent yn-gosod cyfraddau llog ar gyfraddau canrannol yn y miloedd. Mae ein hen gyfaill Wonga.com yn codi APR nodweddiadol o 2,689 y cant, ac mae QuickQuid yn codi APR o 4,000 y cant. Nid yw’r rhain ddim mwy nag usurwyr cyfreithlon.

The big worry is that people do not just borrow once; they go back to the same lender, or a different payday lender, again and again. It is then a small step to falling completely into a spiral of debt, where people struggle to make ends meet and have to go without essentials. A report produced by PricewaterhouseCoopers states that more than four in 10 people are now unable to make their paycheques cover their monthly expenses as a result of the increased cost of living and, of course, the freeze in income and wages.

Y pryder mawr yw nad yw pobl yn benthyca unwaith yn unig; maent yn mynd yn ôl i’r un benthyciwr, neu ddarparwr benthyciad diwrnod cyflog gwahanol, dro ar ôl tro. Cam bach wedyn yw syrthio yn llwyr i mewn i ddyled, lle mae pobl yn cael trafferth cadw dau ben llinyn ynghyd ac yn gorfod ymdopi heb hanfodion. Mae adroddiad gan PricewaterhouseCoopers yn nodi nad yw mwy na phedwar o bob 10 o bobl yn awr yn gallu talu eu biliau misol gyda’u cyflogau, o ganlyniad i gostau byw cynyddol a, wrth gwrs, rhewi incwm a chyflogau.

On the one hand, you could say that, used carefully, a short-term loan could help people over a short-term cash crisis. However, in reality, secured lenders like banks are a safer option and bet. However, for people who need to borrow money quickly, it can be cheaper to take a payday loan rather than slip into an overdraft.

Ar yr un llaw, gallech ddweud bod benthyciad tymor byr yn gallu helpu pobl trwy argyfwng ariannol tymor byr, os caiff ei ddefnyddio’n ofalus. Fodd bynnag, mewn gwirionedd, mae benthycwyr gwarantedig fel banciau yn opsiwn mwy diogel. Fodd bynnag, ar gyfer pobl sydd angen benthyg ariannol yn gyflym, gall fod yn rhatach cymryd benthyciad diwrnod cyflog yn hytrach na defnyddio gorddrafft.

Legal loan sharks target the poorest and most vulnerable. Interest is charged on interest and, as I said, borrowers are then forced to do without essential items. Urgent action is needed now before thousands more borrowers end up in deep financial trouble. That is why I am pleased to be supporting the campaign run by Labour and Co-operative Party Members of Parliament for legal loan sharks to be regulated. The campaign in Westminster is led by an old friend of mine, Stella Creasy, the Labour and Co-operative Member for Walthamstow, who is calling on the UK Government to introduce a cap on interest rates for high-interest credit. This could be done, as they do in France and Germany, by setting a total cost cap, or it could simply limit interest rates themselves. The Consumer Credit (Regulation and Advice) Bill is due for its Second Reading on 20 January 2012.

Mae usurwyr cyfreithiol yn targedu’r bobl dlotaf a mwyaf agored i niwed. Mae llog yn cael ei godi ar log ac, fel y dywedais, mae’n rhaid i fenthycwyr yna ymdopi heb eitemau hanfodol. Mae angen gweithredu ar frys yn awr cyn bod miloedd yn fwy o fenthycwyr yn syrthio i drafferthion ariannol dwfn. Dyna pam yr wyf yn falch o gefnogi ymgyrch Aelodau Seneddol y Blaid Lafur a’r Blaid Gydweithredol ar reoleiddio usurwyr cyfreithiol. Mae'r ymgyrch yn San Steffan yn cael ei arwain gan hen ffrind i mi, Stella Creasy, yr Aelod Llafur dros Walthamstow, sydd yn galw ar Lywodraeth y DU i gyflwyno cap ar gyfraddau llog ar gyfer credyd llog uchel. Gellir gwneud hyn, fel y gwnânt yn Ffrainc a’r Almaen, drwy bennu uchafswm ar gyfer yr holl gostau, neu fe ellir cyfyngu ar y cyfraddau llog eu hunain. Mae’r Bil Credyd Defnyddwyr (Rheoliad a Chyngor) i fod i gael ei Ail Ddarlleniad ar 20 Ionawr 2012.

Unfortunately, at this point in time, the UK Government is not in favour of regulating the market. The Minister for Employment Relations, Consumer and Postal Affairs, Ed Davey, has refused to meet with members of the campaign group to discuss the issue, and while the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has commissioned a report on the credit market, this is expected to take a year to be completed, and its primary focus is store cards and credit cards. In my view, the UK Government must intervene to cut down the numbers of people falling into financial misery and using the services of a legal loan shark. With Christmas approaching, an increasing number of people will turn to high-interest credit to make ends meet, and they will fall into further financial trouble.

Yn anffodus, ar hyn o bryd, nid yw Llywodraeth y DU o blaid rheoleiddio’r farchnad. Mae’r Gweinidog dros Gysylltiadau Cyflogaeth, Defnyddwyr a Materion Post, Ed Davey, wedi gwrthod cwrdd ag aelodau’r grŵp ymgyrch i drafod y mater ac, er bod yr Adran Busnes, Arloesedd a Sgiliau wedi comisiynu adroddiad ar y farchnad credyd, disgwylir iddo gymryd blwyddyn i’w gwblhau, a’i brif ffocws yw cardiau siop a chardiau credyd. Yn fy marn i, mae’n rhaid i Lywodraeth y DU ymyrryd i leihau nifer y bobl sy’n syrthio i ofid ariannol a defnyddio gwasanaethau usurwyr cyfreithiol. Gyda’r Nadolig yn nesáu, bydd nifer cynyddol o bobl yn troi at gredyd llog uchel i ddod â dau ben llinyn ynghyd, ac fe fyddant yn mynd i drafferthion ariannol dyfnach.

The reality is that the UK Government could regulate this industry if it wanted to do so and if it had the will to do so. Simply capping credit will not work on its own. We must also promote alternative forms of borrowing that are secure and sustainable, such as credit unions. Credit unions offer easier and cheaper ways of borrowing money and make the scandal of high-interest loans avoidable. In comparison with the high-interest rates offered by companies such as QuickQuid and Wonga, Cardiff and the Vale credit union in my constituency offers a typical APR of just over 21 per cent on a reducing balance. Credit unions provide a tremendous service for the many individuals and communities that would otherwise have no access to affordable credit. Unfortunately, credit unions in the UK still operate under greater restrictions than in other countries, and progress on the legislative reform Order, which would remove these restrictions, has been dragged out by the UK Government.

Y realiti yw y gallai Llywodraeth y DU reoleiddio’r diwydiant hwn pe bai am wneud hynny ac os byddai ganddi’r ewyllys i wneud hynny. Ni fydd rhoi cap ar gredyd yn gweithio ar ei ben ei hun. Mae’n rhaid inni hefyd hyrwyddo ffyrdd amgen o fenthyca sy’n ddiogel ac yn gynaliadwy, fel undebau credyd. Mae undebau credyd yn cynnig ffyrdd haws a rhatach o fenthyca arian ac yn ei gwneud yn bosibl i osgoi sgandal benthyciadau llog uchel. O’i gymharu â’r cyfraddau llog uchel a gynigir gan gwmnïau megis QuickQuid a Wonga, mae undeb credyd Caerdydd a’r Fro yn fy etholaeth i yn cynnig APR nodweddiadol o ychydig dros 21 y cant ar weddill sy’n lleihau. Mae undebau credyd yn darparu gwasanaeth gwych i lawer o unigolion a chymunedau na fyddent fel arall wedi cael mynediad at gredyd fforddiadwy. Yn anffodus, mae undebau credyd yn y DU yn dal i weithredu o dan gyfyngiadau mwy nag mewn gwledydd eraill, ac mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi llusgo ei thraed o ran y Gorchymyn diwygio deddfwriaethol, a fyddai’n cael gwared ar y cyfyngiadau hyn.

When considering how we promote access to fair and sustainable sources of credit, we should think seriously about how we do that and how we can accomplish it. We know that daytime television shows such as Jeremy Kyle have lots of advertising slots taken by these sorts of companies; we see them littered through their advertising breaks, advertising easy-access, short-term credit. We should consider how we can use those same slots, and slots used on local radio, to provide an alternative message to promote sustainable credit sources and money and debt advice.

Wrth ystyried sut y gallwn hyrwyddo mynediad at ffynonellau credyd teg a chynaliadwy, dylem feddwl o ddifrif am sut y gwnawn hynny a sut y gallwn gyflawni hynny. Gwyddom fod sioeau teledu yn ystod y dydd, fel Jeremy Kyle, yn cynnwys llawer o slotiau hysbysebu sy’n cael eu defnyddio gan gwmnïau o’r math hwn; yr ydym yn eu gweld wedi’u gwasgaru trwy’r toriadau, yn hysbysebu credyd tymor byr, mynediad rhwydd. Dylem ystyried sut y gallwn ddefnyddio’r slotiau hynny, a slotiau ar radio lleol, i ddarparu neges amgen i hyrwyddo ffynonellau credyd a chyngor dyled ac arian.

We need a much more strategic approach to providing a trusted brand with a wide-ranging network to provide affordable savings and credit. The most obvious tie-in is the post office network and credit unions. Piecemeal work at present is being done, but I would like to see much more done in Wales to promote that as a solution. It is in the credit regulation Bill, and it is a matter on which credit unions and the Commercial Workers Union have already approached me and other Members. I urge the Welsh Government to take up this option to work proactively with credit unions and the post office network to see what we could already achieve. My view is that there is already a compelling case for regulation on both ethical and practical grounds. There is an overwhelming case that our poorest and most vulnerable will suffer the most if the UK Government refuses to act.

Mae angen dull llawer mwy strategol tuag at ddarparu brand dibynadwy â rhwydwaith eang i ddarparu cyfrifon cynilo a chredyd fforddiadwy. Y cysylltiad amlycaf yw’r rhwydwaith swyddfa’r bost ac undebau credyd. Mae gwaith tameidiog yn cael ei wneud ar hyn o bryd, ond hoffwn weld llawer mwy yn cael ei wneud yng Nghymru i hyrwyddo hynny fel ateb. Mae yn y Bil rheoleiddio credyd, ac mae’n fater y mae’r undebau credyd a’r Commercial Workers Union eisoes wedi cysylltu â mi yn ei gylch, ac Aelodau eraill. Yr wyf yn annog Llywodraeth Cymru i ddefnyddio’r cyfle hwn i weithio yn rhagweithiol gydag undebau credyd a rhwydwaith swyddfa’r bost i weld beth y gallem ei gyflawni. Fy marn i yw bod achos cryf o blaid rheoleiddio ar sail foesegol ac ymarferol. Mae’n berffaith amlwg mai’r bobl dlotaf a mwyaf agored i newid bydd yn dioddef fwyaf os bydd Llywodraeth y DU yn gwrthod gweithredu.

Minister, will you consider, if you have not already done so, what action we can take in Wales to help resolve this matter as far as we can, and will you confirm the action that you will take with the UK Government to urgently regulate this industry and protect our poorest and most vulnerable?

Weinidog, a wnewch ystyried, os nad ydych eisoes wedi gwneud, pa gamau gweithredu y gallwn eu cymryd yng Nghymru i helpu i ddatrys y mater hwn, o fewn ein gallu, ac a wnewch gadarnhau pa gamau gweithredu y byddwch yn cymryd gyda Llywodraeth y DU i reoleiddio’r diwydiant hwn ar frys a diogelu ein pobl dlotaf a mwyaf agored i niwed?

Julie James: The situation is only getting worse. In 2010, in a consultation paper on the social fund, the Department for Work and Pensions noted that typical high-interest credit rates range from 272 per cent to 545.2 per cent in the high-interest sector. This is now very out of date. In the last week, I saw a television advert by Wonga.com advertising rates at 4,185 per cent—it is absolutely disgraceful and should be stopped immediately. This is when the current bank rate is one of the lowest that we have ever experienced. It is hard to see how allowing such practices is commensurate with anything that approaches civilised society. A civilised society is not one that allows big profits and big bonuses to be earned through the continued and shameless exploitation of the poorest members of our society. On top of this, funding for advice and financial support and education is falling away as local authorities cannot get these discretionary services into any shape to meet the growing demand, and we have legal aid kicked away at the same time.

Julie James: Mae’r sefyllfa yn gwaethygu o hyd. Yn 2010, mewn papur ymgynghori ar y gronfa gymdeithasol, nododd yr Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau fod cyfraddau llog uchel nodweddiadol ar gyfer credyd yn tueddu i fod rhwng 272 y cant a 545.2 y cant yn y sector llog uchel. Mae hyn bellach yn anghywir. Yr wythnos diwethaf, gwelais hysbyseb ar y teledu ar gyfer Wonga.com yn hysbysebu cyfraddau o 4,185 y cant—mae’n gwbl warthus a dylid ei atal ar unwaith. Mae’n adeg pan mae cyfraddau banc bron ar yr isaf erioed. Mae’n anodd gweld sut y mae caniatáu arferion o’r fath yn cyd-fynd ag unrhyw beth sy’n agos at gymdeithas wâr. Nid yw cymdeithas wâr yn un sy’n caniatáu ennill elw a bonwsau mawr drwy gam-fanteisio yn barhaus ac yn ddigywilydd ar aelodau tlotaf ein cymdeithas. Ar ben hyn, mae cyllid ar gyfer cyngor a chymorth ariannol ac addysg yn diflannu gan nad yw awdurdodau lleol yn gallu datblygu’r gwasanaethau dewisol hyn yn ddigon da i gyrraedd y galw cynyddol, ac mae cymorth cyfreithiol yn cael ei ddileu ar yr un pryd.

I welcome today’s news reports that, at last, the Government is considering a code of practice. I am happy that it will at least look at a code of practice, which I hope will address what was always known as usury, which is the charging of interest on top of interest so that you have a roll up. People in my community have borrowed as little as £25 and then have to pay back several hundred pounds because they have had the misfortune to have to roll it over. This must be regulated. On top of that, we have an enormous problem: a quarter of the customers of high-cost credit companies cannot get credit anywhere else. We absolutely must strengthen the credit unions to allow people access to credit and get them away from these scurrilous profiteers.

Yr wyf yn croesawu’r adroddiadau yn y newyddion heddiw fod y Llywodraeth, o’r diwedd, yn ystyried cod ymarfer. Yr wyf yn fodlon ei bod o leiaf yn edrych ar lunio cod ymarfer, a gobeithiaf y bydd yn mynd i’r afael ag usuriaeth, sef codi llog ar ben llog fel bod gennych gynnydd parhaol. Mae yna bobl yn fy nghymuned sydd wedi benthyca cyn lleied â £25 ac wedyn yn gorfod talu cannoedd o bunnoedd yn ôl achos eu bod yn ddigon anffodus i gael swm sy’n cynyddu. Mae’n rhaid i hyn gael ei reoleiddio. Ar ben hynny, mae gennym broblem enfawr: ni all chwarter cwsmeriaid y cwmnïau credyd cost uchel gael credyd yn unman arall. Mae’n wirioneddol rhaid inni gryfhau undebau credyd i ganiatáu i bobl allu cael mynediad at gredyd ac osgoi’r proffidwyr anfoesol hyn.

Keith Davies: Diolch i Vaughan Gething am godi’r mater hwn ac am gytuno i roi munud o’i amser i mi. Cytunaf fod angen rheoleiddio llog uchel ar fenthyciadau tymor byr. Yr ydym wedi cyrraedd adeg y Nadolig, fel y soniodd Vaughan. Mae’n amser cyffrous i blant ac yn amser i ddathlu, ond mae hefyd yn amser pan fydd nifer fawr o deuluoedd yn teimlo pwysau oherwydd cost anrhegion a’r costau cysylltiedig eraill i gyd.

Keith Davies: I thank Vaughan Gething for bringing forward this subject and for giving me a minute of his time. I agree that there is a need to regulate high interest rates on short-term loans. Christmas is upon us, as Vaughan mentioned earlier. It is an exciting time for children and a time for celebration, but it is also a time when many families feel under pressure because of the cost of gifts and all the associated costs.

Er fy mod wedi siarad ddoe am undebau credyd, yr wyf yn falch iawn i gael y cyfle i wneud cyfraniad pellach, eto ar bwnc a godwyd gan Vaughan Gething, oherwydd credaf fod yr undebau yn chwarae rhan hanfodol. Yn Llanelli, darparwyd cyfanswm o £12 miliwn dros y 13 mlynedd diwethaf gan yr undeb credyd. Ar hyn o bryd, mae 22 undeb credyd yng Nghymru sy’n cynnig gwasanaethau i dros 50,000 o aelodau. Mae nifer yr aelodau wedi cynyddu o 10,000 yn 2000 i 50,000 heddiw. Mae hyn yn dangos y cynnydd dros y blynyddoedd. Rai misoedd yn ôl, datganodd y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau ei fod yn cynyddu’r gwariant ar gyfer prosiectau undebau credyd o £3.6 miliwn i dros £4 miliwn, sef cynnydd o tua £0.5 miliwn.

Although I mentioned credit unions yesterday, I am very glad to have an opportunity to make a further contribution, again on a subject raised by Vaughan Gething, because I believe that credit unions play a crucial role. In Llanelli, a total of £12 million has been provided by the credit union over the past 13 years. At the moment, there are 22 credit unions in Wales that offer services to over 50,000 members. The number of members has increased from 10,000 in 2000 to 50,000 today. This shows the increase that has happened over the years. Some months ago, the Minister for Local Government and Communities stated that he was to increase expenditure for credit union projects from £3.6 million to over £4 million, which is an increase of about £0.5 million.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. You are well over your minute, Keith.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Rydych dros eich munud, Keith.

Keith Davies: Felly, yn gryno, hoffwn gefnogi’r manteision a’r gwaith da a wnaed gan yr undebau credyd a gobeithiaf y gallwn roi cymaint o gefnogaeth ag sy’n bosibl iddynt.

Keith Davies: So, briefly, I would like to support the benefits and the good work that is done by the credit unions and I hope that we can give them as much support as possible.

Aled Roberts: Hoffwn hefyd ddiolch i Vaughan Gething am ddwyn y mater ger ein bron. Dylwn hefyd ddatgan buddiant fel aelod o undeb credyd Wrecsam, sy’n rhan o undeb credyd gogledd Cymru. Wrth dyfu i fyny yn ardal y Rhos a mynd ymlaen i fod yn gyfreithiwr yn Wrecsam, nid oeddwn yn meddwl y buaswn yn gweld sefyllfa lle yr oedd cyfradd llog o ryw 4,000 y cant ar unrhyw fath o fenthyciad. Yr wyf yn cofio synnu, pan oeddwn yn llenwi ffurflenni ar gyfer cymorth cyfreithiol, fod pobl yn talu 150 y cant i bobl fel Provident. Fodd bynnag, mae gennym ddwy fath o broblem ar hyn o bryd. Nid yw pobl gyffredin yn ymwybodol o’r gwasanaethau sy’n cael eu cynnig gan undebau credyd. Mae gwaith i’w wneud ar hynny. Mae gennym waith hefyd i sicrhau bod y bobl hyn yn gwybod yn union faint o log y maent yn ei dalu. Mae siopau ar ein strydoedd ni sy’n rhoi’r argraff eu bod yn barod i’ch helpu o ran darparu arian, ond nid yw pobl yn ymwybodol mai’r cwbl sydd ei angen arnynt yw arian ar gyfer yr wythnos sydd i ddod. Yr wyf yn sylweddoli bod gen i, a fy mhlaid, gyfrifoldeb i ddwyn perswâd ar y bobl yn y blaid yn San Steffan i newid eu meddwl a dod â rheolau newydd i rym.

Aled Roberts: I would also like to thank Vaughan Gething for bringing this matter before us. I should also declare an interest as a member of the Wrexham credit union, which is now part of the north Wales credit union. When I was growing up in the Rhos area and went on to become a lawyer in Wrexham, I did not believe that I would see a situation where there would be interest rates of approximately 4,000 per cent imposed on any type of loan. I remember being surprised when filling in forms for legal aid that people paid 150 per cent to people like Provident. However, we now have two types of problems at the moment. Ordinary people are not aware of the services that are offered by credit unions. There is work to be done on that. There is also work to be done to ensure that these people know exactly how much interest they are paying. There are shops on our streets that give the impression that they are ready to help you by providing money, but people are not aware that all they need is money for the week that is to come. I realise that my party and I have a responsibility to persuade the people in the party at Westminster to change their minds and to bring in new regulations.

The Minister for Local Government and Communities (Carl Sargeant): I thank Members for their contributions, and thank Vaughan Gething for bringing this debate to the Chamber. I would like to make it clear from the outset that the regulation of credit rates rests with the UK Government and is not a devolved matter. However, we recognise the worrying increase in the number of consumers taking out high-interest credit agreements, not only with doorstep lenders, but with the payday loan and instant loan companies that the Member referred to.

Y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau (Carl Sargeant): Diolchaf i’r Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau, a diolchaf i Vaughan Gething am ddod â’r ddadl hon i’r Siambr. Hoffwn ei gwneud yn glir o’r cychwyn bod rheoleiddio credyd yn rhywbeth i Lywodraeth y DU, ac nid yw’n fater datganoledig. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn cydnabod y cynnydd pryderus yn nifer y defnyddwyr sy’n cymryd cytundebau credyd llog uchel, nid yn unig gyda benthycwyr carreg drws, ond gyda’r cwmnïau benthyciadau diwrnod cyflog a benthyciadau cyflym y cyfeiriodd yr Aelod atynt.

Over recent years, there has been a rapid increase in the use of payday loans and other instant lending processes. This is an unwelcome development that we are all rightly concerned about. In the present economic climate, where many are struggling to meet their credit commitments, such high-interest products can only add to the growing burden and pressure already felt by families. In particular, we must be concerned about those who have poor or no credit histories and who are shamelessly targeted by high-cost lenders. As people are increasingly financially squeezed with falling incomes and increasing living costs, and as overall UK household debt is predicted to rise to £2.1 trillion, it is vital that we put in place supports and measures to protect consumers, especially the most vulnerable in our communities.

Dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, mae cynnydd sylweddol wedi bod yn nefnydd benthyciadau diwrnod cyflog a phrosesau benthyciadau cyflym eraill. Mae hwn yn ddatblygiad nad yw’n cael croeso, ac rydym oll yn pryderu amdano, yn naturiol. Yn y sefyllfa economaidd bresennol, lle mae llawer o bobl yn cael trafferth i gyrraedd eu hymrwymiadau credyd, gall cynnyrch â llog mor uchel ond ychwanegu at y baich cynyddol a’r pwysau sydd ar deuluoedd yn barod. Yn enwedig, mae’n rhaid inni feddwl am y rhai sydd â hanes credyd gwael neu heb hanes credyd ac sy’n cael eu targedu yn ddigywilydd gan fenthycwyr cost uchel. Wrth i bobl gael eu gwasgu gan incwm sy’n syrthio a chostau byw sy’n cynyddu, ac wrth i ddyled aelwydydd yn y DU yn gyffredinol gynyddu i £2.1 triliwn, yn ôl y rhagolygon, mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn trefnu cefnogaeth a mesurau i ddiogelu cwsmeriaid, yn enwedig y rhai mwyaf agored i niwed yn ein cymunedau. 

The issue of high-cost credit is a complex one and has been the subject of debate over many years. At face value, it seems obvious that the interest rate should be capped, as Members have suggested, but we have to look at that in the broader context of the money lending system. We have to recognise that many who apply for these legal loans might be driven to borrow from unregulated and illegal loan sharks were this facility to be taken away. That would also be extremely concerning.

Mae’r mater credyd cost uchel yn un cymhleth ac mae wedi bod yn bwnc llosg dros lawer o flynyddoedd. Ar yr olwg gyntaf, ymddengys yn amlwg y dylid capio’r gyfradd llog, fel y mae Aelodau wedi cynnig. Ond, mae’n rhaid inni edrych ar hynny yng nghyd-destun ehangach y system benthyca arian. Mae’n rhaid inni gydnabod y gallai llawer o’r bobl sy’n gwneud cais am y benthyciadau cyfreithiol hyn gael eu gyrru i fenthyca gan usurwyr anghyfreithlon nad ydynt yn cael eu rheoleiddio pe bai’r cyfleuster hwn yn cael ei golli. Byddai hynny hefyd yn achosi llawer o bryder.

6.30 p.m.

Simon Thomas: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. At this time of year in particular, perhaps we should remember something that somebody did 2,000 years ago when faced with a similar problem in another country. He simply went into the temple and drove out the money lenders. As has already been said, usury, which is interest paid on interest, is what we need to end here. I accept the point about illegal money lending, but we should crack down on that in a different way. Interest rates over 4,000 per cent should not be acceptable in a modern civilised state.

Simon Thomas: Diolch i’r Gweinidog am ildio. Ar yr adeg hon o’r flwyddyn yn benodol, efallai y dylem gofio rhywbeth a wnaeth rhywun 2,000 o flynyddoedd yn ôl pan wynebodd broblem debyg mewn gwlad arall. Yn syml, aeth i mewn i’r deml a gyrru’r benthycwyr arian allan. Fel y dywedwyd eisoes, usuriaeth, sef llog sy’n cael ei dalu ar log, yw’r hyn sydd angen i ni roi terfyn arni. Derbyniaf y pwynt am fenthyca arian anghyfreithlon, ond dylem fynd i’r afael â hynny mewn ffordd wahanol. Ni ddylai cyfraddau llog o dros 4,000 y cant fod yn dderbyniol mewn gwladwriaeth wâr fodern.

Carl Sargeant: I accept and support the comments made by the Member. These are issues that we collectively try to tackle. The Welsh Government has made a fundamental commitment to ensuring that alternative and more affordable forms of credit are a viable choice. I recently visited a credit union with the Member for Llanelli. There are now credit unions in all 22 local authority areas. As Aled Roberts mentioned, we are trying to encourage more people to have the confidence to use credit unions to access safe lending and savings services. We are doing a lot of work with local schools as part of that process. Significant funding has been provided to the Welsh credit unions: £750,000 in revenue funding and £1 million in capital investment were provided in 2009-10.

Carl Sargeant: Yr wyf yn derbyn a chefnogi’r sylwadau a wnaeth yr Aelod. Mae’r rhain yn faterion yr ydym yn ceisio mynd i’r afael â nhw gyda’n gilydd. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gwneud ymrwymiad sylfaenol i sicrhau bod ffurfiau amgen a mwy fforddiadwy o gredyd yn ddewis hyfyw. Yn ddiweddar, ymwelais ag undeb credyd gyda’r Aelod dros Lanelli. Erbyn hyn mae undebau credyd ym mhob un o’r 22 ardal awdurdod lleol. Fel y crybwyllodd Aled Roberts, yr ydym yn ceisio annog mwy o bobl i fod â’r hyder i ddefnyddio undebau credyd i gael mynediad at wasanaethau benthyca ac arbedion diogel. Yr ydym yn gwneud llawer o waith gydag ysgolion lleol fel rhan o’r broses honno. Darparwyd cyllid sylweddol i undebau credyd Cymru; darparwyd £750,000 mewn cyllid refeniw ac £1 miliwn o fuddsoddiad cyfalaf yn 2009-10.

Moving on to the important issue that Simon Thomas raised, namely counteracting the threat of exploitation by predatory lenders, we will continue to support the partnership with the credit unions and the all-Wales illegal money lending unit. It is fascinating to visit the latter, and its staff have some extraordinary stories to tell about people’s lives. It was very public. There was a guy, for example, who borrowed a small amount of money but was threatened with his life, bundled into a car and taken away. He was fortunate that the police were able to intervene through the illegal money lending unit. This really does happen and it really does happen in Wales; we should not believe that it does not. We have been able to support the unit, helping over 1,800 victims of illegal money lending and leading to 48 significant loan sharks being arrested.

Gan symud ymlaen at y mater pwysig a gododd Simon Thomas, sef atal y bygythiad o gam-fanteisio gan fenthycwyr diegwyddor, byddwn ni’n parhau i gefnogi’r bartneriaeth gyda'r undebau credyd ac uned benthyca arian anghyfreithlon Cymru gyfan. Mae’n hynod ddiddorol ymweld â’r olaf, ac mae gan ei staff rai straeon hynod i’w hadrodd am fywydau pobl. Yr oedd yn gyhoeddus iawn. Yr oedd un dyn, er enghraifft, a fenthycodd swm bach o arian, ond bygythiwyd ei ladd, cafodd ei fwndelu i mewn i gar a’i gludo i ffwrdd. Yr oedd yn ffodus bod yr heddlu yn gallu ymyrryd drwy’r uned benthyca arian anghyfreithlon. Mae hyn wir yn digwydd ac mae wir yn digwydd yng Nghymru; ni ddylem gredu nad yw’n digwydd. Yr ydym wedi gallu cefnogi’r uned, gan helpu dros 1,800 o ddioddefwyr o fenthyca arian anghyfreithlon a chan arwain at arestio 48 o fenthycwyr arian didrwydded o bwys.

We face other issues in relation to how Wales takes forward the arrangements that replace the social fund community care grants and the crisis loans. People often turn to these resources, and we have to understand how we will deliver the replacement scheme. As a key part of that process, we will be consulting on the proposals shortly. As I alluded to earlier, we intend to introduce a more holistic approach to the problems.

Yr ydym yn wynebu materion eraill mewn perthynas â sut y mae Cymru yn bwrw ymlaen â’r trefniadau sy’n disodli grantiau gofal cymunedol a benthyciadau argyfwng y gronfa gymdeithasol. Mae pobl yn aml yn troi at yr adnoddau hyn, ac mae’n rhaid i ni ddeall sut y byddwn yn darparu’r cynllun yn eu lle. Fel rhan allweddol o’r broses honno, byddwn yn ymgynghori ar y cynigion yn fuan. Fel y crybwyllais yn gynharach, yr ydym yn bwriadu cyflwyno dull mwy cyfannol o ymdrin â’r problemau.

Financial literacy is also extremely important, allowing people to understand what a 1,000 per cent annual percentage rate means. Sometimes, people are desperate and do not fully understand the implications of taking out a short-term payday loan with huge interest rates, as Julie James mentioned.

Mae llythrennedd ariannol hefyd yn hynod o bwysig, gan alluogi pobl i ddeall beth yw ystyr cyfradd canrannol flynyddol o 1,000 y cant. Weithiau, mae angen arian ar bobl yn daer ac nid ydynt yn deall yn llawn beth yw goblygiadau cymryd benthyciad diwrnod cyflog tymor byr gyda chyfraddau llog enfawr, fel y crybwyllodd Julie James.

Antoinette Sandbach: Thank you for taking an intervention, Minister. There is a good independent financial planning service designed for those on very low incomes that is run by an organisation called Pennysmart Community Interest Company, which as you may be aware is based in Flintshire. Citizens Advice is running a campaign called ‘Top Tips to Avoid a Christmas Debt Hangover’. If there are Members who wish to write to the UK Government on a cross-party basis on this issue, I would welcome that and would be happy to sign a letter on the possibility of capping interest rates.

Antoinette Sandbach: Diolch am dderbyn ymyriad, Weinidog. Mae gwasanaeth cynllunio ariannol annibynnol da ar gyfer pobl ar incwm isel iawn sy’n cael ei redeg gan sefydliad o’r enw Cwmni Budd Cymunedol Pennysmart, sydd, fel y gwyddoch, efallai, wedi’i leoli yn sir y Fflint. Mae Cyngor ar Bopeth yn cynnal ymgyrch o’r enw ‘Top Tips to Avoid a Christmas Debt Hangover’. Os oes Aelodau sy’n dymuno ysgrifennu at Lywodraeth y DU ar sail drawsbleidiol ar y mater hwn, byddwn yn croesawu hynny a byddwn yn hapus i lofnodi llythyr am y posibilrwydd o gapio cyfraddau llog.

Carl Sargeant: I thank the Member for her contribution. I am sure that Members across the Chamber have heard her comments and will possibly take up her offer.

Carl Sargeant: Diolch i’r Aelod am ei chyfraniad. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod Aelodau ar draws y Siambr wedi clywed ei sylwadau, a byddant o bosibl yn derbyn ei chynnig.

To conclude, I thank the Member for his contribution in tabling this important debate in the last Plenary session before Christmas. This is a critical time, when people will be looking for additional cash to see them through the Christmas period. I hope that there are processes in place in Wales, through credit unions and financial inclusion programmes, which will enable people to have a better understanding of money. However, the issue of capping, which you raised, is important. To support that I have written to the UK Government on this issue, and if I receive a response I will post it in the Library for Members to be aware of the detail.

I gloi, diolch i’r Aelod am ei gyfraniad drwy gyflwyno’r ddadl bwysig hon yn y Cyfarfod Llawn olaf cyn y Nadolig. Mae hwn yn gyfnod hollbwysig, pan fydd pobl yn chwilio am arian parod ychwanegol i’w cynnal dros gyfnod y Nadolig. Gobeithiaf fod prosesau mewn lle yng Nghymru, drwy undebau credyd a rhaglenni cynhwysiant ariannol, a fydd yn galluogi pobl i ddeall arian yn well. Fodd bynnag, mae’r mater o gapio, a godwyd gennych, yn bwysig. I gefnogi hynny, yr wyf wedi ysgrifennu at Lywodraeth y DU ar y mater hwn, ac os byddaf yn cael ymateb byddaf yn ei roi yn y Llyfrgell fel bod Aelodau yn ymwybodol o’r manylion.

I was interested in your contribution on some of the advertising issues during the so-called ‘Jeremy Kyle hour’. You make an important point about that slot regarding the sophisticated marketing tools that loan companies have to help them with whom they want to target. I think we should access that method as well. Maybe, I will ask my team to consider this matter.

Ymddiddorais yn eich cyfraniad ar rai o’r materion am hysbysebu yn ystod yr hyn a elwir yn ‘awr Jeremy Kyle’. Yr ydych yn gwneud pwynt pwysig am y slot hwnnw ynghylch yr offer marchnata soffistigedig sydd gan gwmnïau benthyca i’w helpu i gyrraedd y bobl y maent am eu targedu. Credaf y dylem gael mynediad at y dull hwnnw hefyd. Efallai y byddaf yn gofyn i’m tîm ystyried y mater.

Turning to the issue of enhancing credit unions, as Aled Roberts said, this is a Government commitment. We have considered how we can support the credit union movement. I was in north Wales to launch the merger of all the organisations earlier this year. It was a positive step forward to strengthen the base from which credit unions can grow. This is something I am keen to do.

Gan droi at wella undebau credyd, fel y dywedodd Aled Roberts, mae hwn yn ymrwymiad gan y Llywodraeth. Yr ydym wedi ystyried sut y gallwn gefnogi’r mudiad undebau credyd. Yr oeddwn i yn y gogledd i lansio’r broses o uno’r holl sefydliadau yn gynharach eleni. Yr oedd yn gam cadarnhaol ymlaen i gryfhau’r sylfaen ar gyfer twf undebau credyd. Mae hyn yn rhywbeth yr wyf yn awyddus i’w wneud.

I thank Members again for their contributions to this debate. We should not take our eyes off the ball on this issue. This is, potentially, life ruining for many people who are in a desperate state when they need to borrow money. We need to present and protect the most vulnerable in our communities. It leaves me with no more to say today, Dirprwy Lywydd, other than to wish Members the best for Christmas and thank them for their contributions to today’s debate.

Diolchaf i Aelodau unwaith eto am eu cyfraniadau at y ddadl hon. Ni ddylem esgeuluso’r mater hwn. Mae hyn, o bosibl, yn difetha bywydau llawer o bobl sy’n barod i’w mentro hi’n arw pan fo angen benthyg arian arnynt. Mae angen i ni gyflwyno ac amddiffyn y rhai mwyaf agored i niwed yn ein cymunedau. Nid oes gennyf ragor i’w ddweud heddiw, Ddirprwy Lywydd, heb law am ddymuno’r gorau dros y Nadolig i’r Aelodau a diolch iddynt am eu cyfraniadau at y ddadl heddiw.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: That concludes today’s proceedings.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Daw hynny â thrafodion heddiw i ben.